Prisons - are they effective?

[tory]

After Friday's incident in London Bridge one has to wonder what the hell is going on with the justice system. 

I have to say that I was emotionally involved in it - my wife goes up to London Bridge a lot and whilst she wasn't there, on another day she might very well have been. The fact that a man who was convicted of terrorist activities was able to essentially run amok within 10 years of being sentenced makes a mockery of it. It is not going to stop us going up to London Bridge but I'm on my guard more than I would have been. One of my son's friends actually moved from living in Tower Bridge down here after the last attack because his parents were naturally very frightened.

I know that with all things of this nature it is complex and multi-faceted, but to the average lay person they will see something like this and think "well what the fucking hell is going on" and it is perhaps no wonder that attitudes towards societies and cultures associated with such events harden. To a certain extent we do actually have the death penalty - the attacker in this instance was shot dead without being arrested or even having a trial because he was deemed to be a critical threat to the public. 

It strikes me that people who come from cultures that have what we perceive as cruel and hardened justice systems think of us as "soft". We can absorb blows like this, where people are murdered in broad daylight and have done for many years, but at some point I do wonder whether there is a tipping point. It's a sort of savagery that is difficult to process and quantify, which makes it all the more terrifying.

[Deleted]

I don't understand the thread title.
Effective at what exactly?

[tory]

Prisons are designed as a deterrent and also for rehabilitation. Obviously in this and many other instances prisons achieve neither of these things.

I'd argue that for the majority of the population they do their job - the very idea of going to prison is shocking enough for us to reconsider whether we would commit a crime. But for a hardened criminal or someone who has been radicalised/is an ideologue etc etc, they simply do not do their job.

I guess my laboured point is whether prisons are particularly effective given the liberal consensus that we live in. Those on the left I would argue are generally for more progressive attitudes regarding rehabilitation, in that criminals are victims of sociological issues and their environment, whereas those on the right argue for more punitive measures to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place.

[Cousin Lou]

I think it’s common knowledge that prisons don’t work in terms of scaring off the punters or putting the prisoners straight- safe for a few exceptions. The retaliation aspect may work to some extend.

[tory]

Do you mean that to those who are likely to commit a crime they don't pose a deterrent?

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2019 11:14:30 GMT tory said:

Prisons are designed as a deterrent and also for rehabilitation. Obviously in this and many other instances prisons achieve neither of these things.

I'd argue that for the majority of the population they do their job - the very idea of going to prison is shocking enough for us to reconsider whether we would commit a crime. But for a hardened criminal or someone who has been radicalised/is an ideologue etc etc, they simply do not do their job.

I guess my laboured point is whether prisons are particularly effective given the liberal consensus that we live in.

What liberal consensus?

[Cousin Lou]

Dec 1, 2019 16:49:35 GMT tory said:

Do you mean that to those who are likely to commit a crime they don't pose a deterrent?

And to those unlikely to. The occupancy rate of prisons backs the idea.

[tory]

Dec 1, 2019 20:29:52 GMT @madcyril1 said:

Dec 1, 2019 11:14:30 GMT tory said:

Prisons are designed as a deterrent and also for rehabilitation. Obviously in this and many other instances prisons achieve neither of these things.

I'd argue that for the majority of the population they do their job - the very idea of going to prison is shocking enough for us to reconsider whether we would commit a crime. But for a hardened criminal or someone who has been radicalised/is an ideologue etc etc, they simply do not do their job.

I guess my laboured point is whether prisons are particularly effective given the liberal consensus that we live in.

What liberal consensus?

We live in a liberal consensus. That's fairly obvious I would have thought. Most Tories are ultimately liberal, like Boris Johnson and most Labour MPs are also liberal too. The notion that one can do what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else is a liberal notion. The consensus on crime seems to be that we should seek to rehabilitate prisoners rather than apply what might seem to be punitive punishments as a deterrent. Compare that with a country like Saudi Arabia, which has a conservative consensus when it comes to crime and uses violence regularly as a punishment.

[Deleted]

I think the word you're looking for is civilised not liberal.

[tory]

I disagree. On the whole, I think we have a lenient and therefore liberal view towards crime. Only the most hardened criminals are put away with no chance of release. Even murderers have the chance to be rehabilitated back into society. That in itself suggests that we have a belief in society being able to reform criminals.

A "civilised" view of society is far more subjective. What "civilised" means is much vaguer and more open to interpretation. People who live in Saudi Arabia and other countries such as the USA, who have capital punishment, I suspect may see themselves as "civilised".

[Deleted]

I don't know what you want from people in these kind of debates. Of course rehabilitation is a more civilised and practical response than a flog 'em and throw away the key approach. Haven't you noticed how overcrowded the prisons are?

[Cousin Lou]

Dec 1, 2019 11:14:30 GMT tory said:

Prisons are designed as a deterrent and also for rehabilitation. Obviously in this and many other instances prisons achieve neither of these things.

I'd argue that for the majority of the population they do their job - the very idea of going to prison is shocking enough for us to reconsider whether we would commit a crime. But for a hardened criminal or someone who has been radicalised/is an ideologue etc etc, they simply do not do their job.

I guess my laboured point is whether prisons are particularly effective given the liberal consensus that we live in. Those on the left I would argue are generally for more progressive attitudes regarding rehabilitation, in that criminals are victims of sociological issues and their environment, whereas those on the right argue for more punitive measures to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place.

You seem to overlook the reality that most people don't go out killing, raping and robbing  because they are civilised, and not out of fear of going to prison.

[Deleted]

I watched American Me last week. Although fictional, it's an interesting look at California prisons, specifically. If you're not in a gang, or align with one, racially, you're fucked. I'm sure it's the same around most of the US.

[wobblie]

Invest in people, not prisons.

[Deleted]

Feb 2, 2021 12:07:27 GMT wobblie said:

Invest in people, not prisons.

Can you be a bit more specific? ( God, turning into G here)