|
racism
Jul 18, 2019 8:34:02 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Jul 18, 2019 8:34:02 GMT
If we look at the word, ‘racism’, we see that it is made up of ‘race’ and the suffix ‘-ism’. This suffix is used to denote a system which, at least in the western world, is a system of white supremacy.
This clearly differentiates racism from prejudice. Anyone can be prejudiced toward anyone else, regardless of their race. People of color can certainly be prejudiced toward white people. However it is not racism because there is no larger system in place which oppresses white people.Am I right in saying this definition of racism came about in the 70s on the left? I seem to recall reading something in the dim and distant past. FWIW, this is what was understood in the 1960s and early 1970s when I was writing my thesis on black writers in the USA. Racism was essentially different from prejudice, stereotyping and so on, because it was backed up by systemic oppression. Which is why I wrote
way back on page one.
Please note that this is a linguistic point, no more.
I'm sure it does goes back further. Bearing in mind that this is from memory and with that caveat I recall reading about some academic paper or something that was influential in crystallising what you are talking about at some point and that's what I'm referring to. I get the where people are coming from with this but I'm uncomfortable with how such differentiations are applied in the real world if that makes sense.
|
|
|
racism
Jul 18, 2019 8:48:51 GMT
Post by Crunchy Col on Jul 18, 2019 8:48:51 GMT
I think the whole 'punching down' aspect is key.
I know people who exhibit what might be called 'racist' tendencies towards one race, but they reject the label (wouldn't anybody?) because they're very friendly with people of other particular races. In fact they might generally prefer the company of people from countries other than their own. And that's the fact they'll wave in their accusers' faces as proof ('I'm absolutely not a racist! Many of my good friends are Italians!' etc.). You get this with Trump, to take an obvious example.
|
|
|
Post by Crunchy Col on Jul 18, 2019 9:00:33 GMT
Put simply and specifically - the notion that whites are superior to blacks is out-and-out racism, based on (still in some cultures) deep-rooted ideas supported by pseudoscience/phrenology/eugenics/white supremacy, and indefensible in the modern age. That's at one end of the spectrum.
And at the other end, people saying things like 'Christ we were surrounded by Finns at the party - they're all so TALL, aren't they?'. Which contributes towards stereotyping and is harmful but at a much subtler level.
The fact that both of these ideas are put into the same bag called RACISM is, at best, unhelpful. That's what I wanted to get at with this thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 11:24:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 11:24:47 GMT
I mean a larger point about the dynamics of racism. We could play the specific “does this specific situation apply?” game all day. But do you have a larger contention with my argument? Yeah, there's a right way and wrong way to protest most times. When some US white people and Black people agree on which is the best or worst, why does the colour of their skin matter if they come to the same conclusion? "that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument." is way over the top in my opinion.
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 13:20:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 13:20:09 GMT
I mean a larger point about the dynamics of racism. We could play the specific “does this specific situation apply?” game all day. But do you have a larger contention with my argument? Yeah, there's a right way and wrong way to protest most times. When some US white people and Black people agree on which is the best or worst, why does the colour of their skin matter if they come to the same conclusion? "that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument." is way over the top in my opinion. I don’t think race matters in this particular equation at all. Simply said - whenever the dominant community criticizes an oppressed community’s method of protest, they are engaging in further domination of that community. Pretty basic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 13:48:44 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 13:48:44 GMT
Yeah, there's a right way and wrong way to protest most times. When some US white people and Black people agree on which is the best or worst, why does the colour of their skin matter if they come to the same conclusion? "that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument." is way over the top in my opinion. I don’t think race matters in this particular equation at all. Simply said - whenever the dominant community criticizes an oppressed community’s method of protest, they are engaging in further domination of that community. Pretty basic. I get the premise, are you part of the dominant community?
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 15:05:38 GMT
Post by fonz on Jun 5, 2020 15:05:38 GMT
Yeah, there's a right way and wrong way to protest most times. When some US white people and Black people agree on which is the best or worst, why does the colour of their skin matter if they come to the same conclusion? "that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument." is way over the top in my opinion. I don’t think race matters in this particular equation at all. Simply said - whenever the dominant community criticizes an oppressed community’s method of protest, they are engaging in further domination of that community. Pretty basic. Let's take the #BLM issue out of this argument for a second as it's a very emotive issue. What if the dominant community's criticism is valid, and stands up to objective scrutiny? Because by your argument you make it sound like a 'dominant community' has no ability or right to be critical. Not all dominant communities are necessarily oppressive. Most communities are made up of a fairly diverse range of ethnicities, creeds etc There will always be a majority of some sort. You are implying that any opinion they express will be 'engaging in further domination of that community'.
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 15:12:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by cousinlou on Jun 5, 2020 15:12:19 GMT
I mean a larger point about the dynamics of racism. We could play the specific “does this specific situation apply?” game all day. But do you have a larger contention with my argument? Yeah, there's a right way and wrong way to protest most times. When some US white people and Black people agree on which is the best or worst, why does the colour of their skin matter if they come to the same conclusion? "that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument." is way over the top in my opinion. Markus has been thinking all that time he was away! :-)
|
|
Sneelock
god
there's a difference, you know...
Posts: 8,434
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 15:23:36 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Jun 5, 2020 15:23:36 GMT
I read that thread, and to be honest, I don't think flower is from the USA, and so the 'All Lives Matter' thing, such as it is probably doesn't have the same coverage, in Canada, as I'm guessing it does in the States. I've noticed the same thing on Facebook. us here in the Good Ol' USA have been hearing "...But, don't ALL lives matter?" since the first week of Ferguson. that was five years ago. Where some people see “equal” rights, others frame these as “special” rights, the American Right are language jockeys and know how to insert phrases and mottos into our daily lives. over on Facebook I've seen Canadians and Europeans use the phrase and get pounced on. the phrase makes sense in and of itself. it takes on new meaning when enough people wearing camoflauge and racist tatoos have said it to you.
I've been message board friends with Flower for a while. IMO whatever else you might say about her there's no way she's racist.
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:06:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 16:06:41 GMT
I don’t think race matters in this particular equation at all. Simply said - whenever the dominant community criticizes an oppressed community’s method of protest, they are engaging in further domination of that community. Pretty basic. I get the premise, are you part of the dominant community? In this case, definitely.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:09:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 16:09:22 GMT
I get the premise, are you part of the dominant community? In this case, definitely. I guess that's where i differ from your premise, your language suggests that no matter what white people do they're racist is some way. I don't buy in to that.
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:19:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 16:19:42 GMT
I don’t think race matters in this particular equation at all. Simply said - whenever the dominant community criticizes an oppressed community’s method of protest, they are engaging in further domination of that community. Pretty basic. Let's take the #BLM issue out of this argument for a second as it's a very emotive issue. What if the dominant community's criticism is valid, and stands up to objective scrutiny? Because by your argument you make it sound like a 'dominant community' has no ability or right to be critical. Not all dominant communities are necessarily oppressive. Most communities are made up of a fairly diverse range of ethnicities, creeds etc There will always be a majority of some sort. You are implying that any opinion they express will be 'engaging in further domination of that community'. Here’s the original point I made: ***Essentially, I think everyone in the dominant culture needs to keep in mind that when we are offering our opinions on someone else’s oppression - speculating on how they SHOULD properly protest (or even if they have a legitimate claim to protest) - that we may be inadvertently and inherently making a supremacist argument.*** Note words like “may” and “inadvertently.” Ultimately we are still going to have our opinions - and it is always possible that at some cosmic level they could be right. But the whole point of protest is that the approved channels are not working. If the oppressor is allowed to define the terms of protest for the oppressed, isn’t that just another acceptance of their dominance?
|
|
~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:36:59 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Jun 5, 2020 16:36:59 GMT
In this case, definitely. I guess that's where i differ from your premise, your language suggests that no matter what white people do they're racist is some way. I don't buy in to that. I think it's a matter of being willing to question some things the one never thought to question. It may not be an overt intent, but simply a bias one has never identified. Ireland has been pretty homogeneous, other than Scottish Presbyterians imported by the British, and the Spanish Armada wreckage, etc., and the current openings required by EU membership (which really didn't kick in until the mid 90s as Ireland stalled them for so long) Blood heritage nationality systems tend to be closed and insulated from such questions of race and membership.
|
|
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:41:28 GMT
Post by tory on Jun 5, 2020 16:41:28 GMT
Start from the point that everyone is racist and you're immediately in a better place.
It's not whether you're racist or not, it's admitting that everyone of every colour is racist to some degree (in that they make generalised judgements about a race). It's how racist you are which matters.
Racism exists everywhere and always will I suspect, particularly if groups define themselves explicitly by their race rather than through other identities.
America's issue is that the nation-state, which is the ideal form of expressing a supra-identity that everyone can adhere to regardless of gender, race etc, has a political settlement that itself was founded during a politically sensitive time in today's context. And now, because of a troubled economy, "The American dream" is not as reachable a settlement as it once was.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:48:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 16:48:10 GMT
I guess that's where i differ from your premise, your language suggests that no matter what white people do they're racist is some way. I don't buy in to that. I think it's a matter of being willing to question some things the one never thought to question. It may not be an overt intent, but simply a bias one has never identified. Ireland has been pretty homogeneous, other than Scottish Presbyterians imported by the British, and the Spanish Armada wreckage, etc., and the current openings required by EU membership (which really didn't kick in until the mid 90s as Ireland stalled them for so long) Blood heritage nationality systems tend to be closed and insulated from such questions of race and membership. I am totally open to be proven that something i have being doing or saying is racist. I'd have no problem admiting that if proven, however this 100% racist without a chance of parole no matter what you do is just crap in my opinion. Also, you should come over to Ireland some time. We still shock a lot of people with how multicultural we are and in some ways more progressive than other countries.
|
|