Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 16:50:40 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 16:50:40 GMT
Start from the point that everyone is racist and you're immediately in a better place. Are you being sarcastic or really mean this?
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 17:06:36 GMT
In this case, definitely. I guess that's where i differ from your premise, your language suggests that no matter what white people do they're racist is some way. I don't buy in to that. I didn’t imply that at all. I merely suggested that the people being protested against aren’t the best people to define what a proper protest should look like. Mind you - I do think your protestation is worthy of discussion. But I think you have to define terms a bit. I wouldn’t argue that all white people ‘are racists’. Not in the sense that being racist is a defining characteristic. Most white people have no enmity at all to people of other races. But the same people could fairly be accused of racism as an “ism” to the extent that they/I/we benefit from and uphold a racist system. Ultimately, you can hold no hate in your heart for any other living creature, but the most enlightened of us still will never get to the bottom of all of the racist assumptions we’ve internalized and perpetuate. It is no sin to be infected with racism in this context. The sin is being unwilling to recognize and acknowledge it.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:10:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 17:10:08 GMT
Start from the point that everyone is racist and you're immediately in a better place. Are you being sarcastic or really mean this? I think it is a pretty good rule of thumb (with the caveat that oppressed people actually have very different societal dynamics influencing them). Markus - you don’t HAVE TO view “racist” as such a great personal shame. Just think of it as the water we swim in.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:20:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 17:20:06 GMT
Yeah, no i don't think everyone should just assume their racist and we're in a better place.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:27:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 17:27:41 GMT
Yeah, no i don't think everyone should just assume their racist and we're in a better place. We get that that is what you believe. But you don’t seem to be able to make any kind of argument to support it.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:35:18 GMT
Post by tory on Jun 5, 2020 17:35:18 GMT
Racism endures when you make assumptions about people's culture because you automatically believe that, surely in some way, it's the same as yours. I think to a certain extent, it's not necessarily "white culture" that does this, it's Globalisation.
The fact is, we really shouldn't be talking about race unless the DNA evidence is absolutely certain.
Heritage to me seems like a much less inflammatory word.
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,238
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jun 5, 2020 17:53:24 GMT
It's also possible to put things in more comfortable terms if you prefer. Maybe 'we all have prejudices and make generalizations." 'Black people' or 'white people' isn't a monolith but a series of individuals; and being tribalists by nature it's our impulse to justify our own place in the equation - being an 'ally' as part of the dominant culture simply means being conscious of/admitting to your own assumptions/privilege in being thought of as in the 'default' position.
Or put another way:
"But I'm not racist - I'm a good person. Everyone's the same" even if true, is not helpful.
"What assumptions am I making? What perceptions do I have that are forcing me to be stuck in an unhealthy narrative, and how does it affect others?" is a less pleasant internal conversation to have, but it's a lot more helpful.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:56:18 GMT
Post by tory on Jun 5, 2020 17:56:18 GMT
Love thy neighbour.
Simple.
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Admin
Administrator
Posts: 208
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:57:25 GMT
Post by Admin on Jun 5, 2020 17:57:25 GMT
sorry! trying to move the racism posts to the old racism thread! bear with me...
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Admin
Administrator
Posts: 208
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 17:58:45 GMT
Post by Admin on Jun 5, 2020 17:58:45 GMT
ok
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 18:24:44 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Jun 5, 2020 18:24:44 GMT
if you are a police officer and you brutalize or kill a cooperative black person then you just might be a racist. somebody stands up and points at the guy and CALLS him a racist - that always leads to trouble.
then, right on schedule, we all get lost in the weeds discussing what is and isn't racist.
lather, rinse, repeat.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 18:32:21 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 18:32:21 GMT
As I said on another thread people have a different understanding of racism. That's been obvious in the debates between Markus and Davey and Toby and Markus and when that's the case it's difficult to find common ground. In many ways racism is too broad a term to cover the wider range of behaviour and attitudes we're talking about.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 18:34:03 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Jun 5, 2020 18:34:03 GMT
Racism endures when you make assumptions about people's culture because you automatically believe that, surely in some way, it's the same as yours. I think to a certain extent, it's not necessarily "white culture" that does this, it's Globalisation. The fact is, we really shouldn't be talking about race unless the DNA evidence is absolutely certain. Heritage to me seems like a much less inflammatory word. one man's heritage slammed another man's head into a car door? you bet your ass it's less inflammatory.
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Post by Sneelock on Jun 5, 2020 18:42:57 GMT
As I said on another thread people have a different understanding of racism. That's been obvious in the debates between Markus and Davey and Toby and Markus and when that's the case it's difficult to find common ground. In many ways racism is too broad a term to cover the wider range of behaviour and attitudes we're talking about. I think this is probably a fair way of looking at it. I get Black Lives Matter. I don't get it because I'm or because I'm signalling anything - I get it because of what my eyeballs have seen.
I remember a great thread on BCB about the confederate flag. kath and others who called the south home understood that the flag didn't mean the same thing to people who grew up around it as it did to me. I've often seen that flag on the ends of white arms yelling at black schoolchildren and protesters and such. Wallace supporters. Klan members. well, and Skynrd fans.
we all look at the world through the eyeballs of our own experience. parsing racism rubs me the wrong way because of all the racism I've seen. trust me, it doesn't need explaining - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I understand that other people see it differently but that's why people are on the street today in my town. lots of younger people are seeing it this way as well. there is no good reason that this sort of stuff is still going on in America today. period. we all know what it is. why isn't just plain stopping it prioritized the way making sure nobody's feelings get hurt for suggesting they condone racism is?
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,238
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jun 5, 2020 18:51:22 GMT
So let's not get hung up on defining racism, then.
Let's conclude that there's a problem and see what we can do to fix it.
Make the discussion about that rather than focusing on "please acknowledge that I'm not the bad guy here."
Surely we can find common ground there?
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