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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 13, 2019 11:35:42 GMT
It's the paucity of intellectual thought on the left that I despair of. They automatically join any sort of independence movement, because hey, those people are being oppressed, they're out on the streets waving flags being fought by riot police who represent the MAN. Catalonia is a great example. The Catalans have some good reasons for independence, but they have never been independent. There has never been a Catalonia as an independent country. But hey, Barcelona is a popular, vibrant city that we've all been to, so when we see them peacefully protesting, we warm to them because it is seen as their right naturally to do so. If Catalonia seceded, then what about Galicia, Andalusia etc? Spain is a flimsy construct in so many ways, held together by an autocratic regime in Franco that then managed to become economically prosperous enough to allow the constitutional monarchy to come back in the seventies. Europe is full of these places, full of places that want independence, many of them for far-fetched reasons. The reality on the ground is always far more complex. Yugoslavia?
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 13, 2019 11:37:37 GMT
And when did you last see Galicians and Andalucians risking their lives fighting in the street?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 11:47:52 GMT
Israel is a successful country that has managed to install a thriving economy and a democracy in a region of the world where there is simply no tradition of it. Would you rather have that, than being attacked by the countries surrounding it, which is what they have done since 1948? Iran in particular has made no secret of their wish to see Israel destroyed. If we believe in liberal democracy, which we all do fundamentally, then Israel, however imperfect it is, is a much better alternative than Assad style autocracy. Toby that's such a selective, simplistic and partisan summary of Israel that I barely know where to start. It's actually a pretty irresponsible, and I assume deliberately provocative, statement that calls for a long rebuttal, but one I neither have the time nor will for as it will kickstart another long debate that we've all heard before.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 11:55:45 GMT
It is a fine idea to give Palestinians their independence, but the political realities are far too dangerous for it to happen. Your colonial ideas are in the past mate. It's not for you to decide that Palestians being denied basic human rights, clean water, sanitation, education, their own land etc. is some sort of acceptable political pay off for the west's own political interests.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 12:13:17 GMT
That's not colonial.
I accept that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances just as the Israelis are not perfect.
But like in all situations of this kind, it is about making the best of two bad decisions.
I don't think having a proxy state with links to a potential nuclear power that has consistently backed terrorist organisations is a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 12:17:55 GMT
You can't deny democratic and human rights on the basis of what might happen or that you don't think they're strong or developed enough to choose their own destiny. That is absolutely a colonial mindset.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 12:23:13 GMT
If the people of Palestine had tradition of government and weren't in a hugely volatile part of the world, then I suspect that the issue would have been resolved a long time ago.
I respect the fact that Israel has arguably used its own victimhood status to abuse the situation in the Middle East.
However, when you talk about "Human rights" that is ultimately a western idea and concept. And for western ideas and concepts to flourish, then they must be seen as successful, which means supporting countries that uphold what it means to be western. There is a huge amount of realpolitik involved, but ultimately Israel enshrines western ideals more strongly than any other country in the region.
Would Palestine, like Afghanistan, uphold the "human rights" of their own country. I suspect not. It is a pessimistic point of view, but I'm not convinced that with terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah so prevalent within the Palestinian question, that a tolerant, peaceful and robust nascent state would do so.
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Post by DarknessFish on Nov 13, 2019 12:57:07 GMT
My concern is that Labour would make a pact with the SNP and the price of that would obviously be a 2nd independence referendum. If that happens then we could be looking at the break up on the union. I think it is that serious sadly although having a non-Tory government might placate some of the nationalists.
It's just such a mess these days.
But given that the main reason for a swell in the nationalist vote is the current Tory incompetence which has sent the country down this road to Brexit, explicitly ignoring the Scottish referendum vote and the Scottish government in favour of the nutters in the DUP. A break up in the union is entirely the fault of the Tory government, and the only thing that would stop a second independence referendum is the Tories not agreeing to one against the will of the scottish people. Which is hardly democracy.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 13:04:51 GMT
The Scottish independence question was explicitly decided in the Referendum in 2014.
How many referendums do you want before you get the "right" answer?
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Post by DarknessFish on Nov 13, 2019 13:15:16 GMT
The Scottish independence question was explicitly decided in the Referendum in 2014. How many referendums do you want before you get the "right" answer? How many general elections do we have before we have the right answer? What kind of question is that?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 13:15:42 GMT
Scotland voted against Brexit and now it is being imposed upon them against their wishes. That is a fundamental contradiction that needs to be reconciled, either by full independence or allowing them to opt out of the withdrawal. They are the only two solutions that I can see.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 13:19:34 GMT
Scotland is not an independent country. Their "wishes" are only reflected in the voting analysis, not the overall result of the referendum. Scotland did not vote separately outside of the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom to leave the EU, so your answers are frankly bollocks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 13:38:29 GMT
Scotland is not an independent country. Their "wishes" are only reflected in the voting analysis, not the overall result of the referendum. Scotland did not vote separately outside of the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom to leave the EU, so your answers are frankly bollocks. No they are not. They have their own legal system, currency and education system. They have their own parliament. They have a historical, cultural and political autonomy based on their national identity. That's not me arguing for independence, that's a matter for them, I'm just stating facts. For you to ignore all this because it doesn't fit in with some narrow technical definition is frankly bollocks.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 13:42:22 GMT
But Scotland in itself did not vote to leave the EU. They are part of the UK. The referendum was a NATIONAL vote that encompassed all parts of the UK and nowhere in the referendum question did it mention that the result would be respected depending on where the voter was in the country.
The Scottish Parliament did not pass a vote to have a referendum on EU membership by themselves, nor could they ever do because they are NOT sovereign. Nor did the Scottish Parliament vote themselves to have an Independence referendum by themselves because they cannot. Why the hell else would there be a Scottish National Party? To represent Scottish interests in Parliament, not the regional one.
This really is the end of the discussion on this issue G. In legal and political terms your argument is redundant.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 13:46:16 GMT
But Scotland in itself did not vote to leave the EU. They are part of the UK. The referendum was a NATIONAL vote that encompassed all parts of the UK and nowhere in the referendum question did it mention that the result would be respected depending on where the voter was in the country. The Scottish Parliament did not pass a vote to have a referendum on EU membership by themselves, nor could they ever do because they are NOT sovereign. This really is the end of the discussion on this issue G. In legal and political terms your argument is redundant. I'm not arguing on legal terms - that's what YOU DON'T GET. I'm arguing on the basis of what it must feel like for a large population who self identify as Scots to have their wishes on their own future totally ignored. You don't even seem to get that might be an issue for them.
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