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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 13:52:26 GMT
But legal terms are what we have old chap. If you don't have a legal and political framework for making decisions, then what do you have? Are you just going to make stuff up as you go along?
I respect the fact that lots of Scottish people might feel very aggrieved about the Referendum vote. And that will provide them with the opportunity to vote for the Scottish National Party in their elections who campaigned successfully to persuade the Prime Minister in 2014 to hold a referendum on the vote. Maybe the SNP might have the ability to do that again if they get in with Corbyn soon enough. That's what we have - democracy.
We have a political and legal framework with which to make decisions of this nature. You really seem to be arguing that we should do stuff based on some nebulous moral proposition, rather than the cold-hearted reality of what we have already set in place to manage situations like this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 14:08:31 GMT
But legal terms are what we have old chap. If you don't have a legal and political framework for making decisions, then what do you have? Are you just going to make stuff up as you go along? I respect the fact that lots of Scottish people might feel very aggrieved about the Referendum vote. And that will provide them with the opportunity to vote for the Scottish National Party in their elections who campaigned successfully to persuade the Prime Minister in 2014 to hold a referendum on the vote. Maybe the SNP might have the ability to do that again if they get in with Corbyn soon enough. That's what we have - democracy. We have a political and legal framework with which to make decisions of this nature. You really seem to be arguing that we should do stuff based on some nebulous moral proposition, rather than the cold-hearted reality of what we have already set in place to manage situations like this. I'm not saying that at all. What you call "cold hearted reality", I call looking at it from a narrow perspective that doesn't acknowledge the whole reality of the situation which certainly goes beyond purely legal definitions, it's like looking at an object from one side and deciding that that's what it must all look like. If the legal and political framework does not allow for self determination then clearly there is going to be a problem with that framework. And yes it does have to be decided democratically.
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 14:15:34 GMT
The legal and political framework does! People voted to have a referendum and the independence side lost, sadly for them. As I've said before, if it is decided that a 2nd referendum on Independence is held, then maybe the result of the EU referendum vote will have a powerful influence on their decision the next time.
I don't see how else you can arrive at such a result? What do you propose that the UK does differently?
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 13, 2019 14:18:41 GMT
My concern is that Labour would make a pact with the SNP and the price of that would obviously be a 2nd independence referendum. If that happens then we could be looking at the break up on the union. I think it is that serious sadly although having a non-Tory government might placate some of the nationalists.
It's just such a mess these days.
But given that the main reason for a swell in the nationalist vote is the current Tory incompetence which has sent the country down this road to Brexit, explicitly ignoring the Scottish referendum vote and the Scottish government in favour of the nutters in the DUP. A break up in the union is entirely the fault of the Tory government, and the only thing that would stop a second independence referendum is the Tories not agreeing to one against the will of the scottish people. Which is hardly democracy.
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Will of the Scottish people? For a second referendum? Hmmm, I’m not sure about that and when people start talking about the “will of the people” my arse starts to twitch.
A backlash against the Tories is certainly part of the nationalist movement and has been exploited to the max by the nationalists but, Jesus, there is so much bullshit in the movement man I wouldn’t say any break as up was “entirely the fault” of the Tories. By doing so you are taking personal responsibility from us Scots, you know? I mean if you wanna talk about blame then how about pointing the finger at the nationalists? Small minded fantasists quite happy to exploit fear and prejudice and good old fashioned nationalism so they can achieve the panacea of independence. All under the guise of “progressive” politics or, as Salmond nauseatingly put it, “sexy socialism”. They are snake oil salesmen.
We had a referendum and the Nats lost. The whole “the EU vote changes everything!” is not a strong argument imo for having another one and I’m not convinced there is a will for that nor am I convinced "yes" would win.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 13, 2019 16:13:50 GMT
The Scottish independence question was explicitly decided in the Referendum in 2014. How many referendums do you want before you get the "right" answer? How many general elections do we have before we have the right answer? What kind of question is that? Elections happen every few years. The referendum was a "once in a generation" vote. The SNP used that phrase themselves. It was to settle the issue for a significant period of time, not just a few years. That was understood. Of course the EU ref has given the SNP that chance to say "but!" but that's what they do. Polling has been consistently in favour of remaining in the UK since the Scottish ref.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 17:14:22 GMT
I don't see how else you can arrive at such a result? What do you propose that the UK does differently? I don't know, but you can't just treat them as if they were part of England as you were doing.
I worry that tieing in independance with remain would disenfranchise the many who want to remain part of the union but also want to remain in Europe. I'd probably look at the legal option of allowing them to opt out of Brexit while still remaining part of the union. And I know that would be incredibly complex and involve all sorts of further laws. It's a mess but what can you do?*
* Other than turn back the clock four years, pretend Cameron never made his disasterous decision and say we're going back to normal, which is the Lib Dem position.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 13, 2019 17:35:21 GMT
The Bobby Ewing solution
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 17:37:05 GMT
Exactly!
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Post by tory on Nov 13, 2019 17:41:21 GMT
How can you say that they can be part of the union but then part of the EU as well?
How would you reconcile people moving to Scotland to become EU citizens?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 23:01:01 GMT
How can you say that they can be part of the union but then part of the EU as well? How would you reconcile people moving to Scotland to become EU citizens? I wouldn't care..I'd probably be one of them!
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 14, 2019 8:02:18 GMT
You’ll have Hungry Joe at the border with a claymore to get through first!
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 18, 2019 19:51:50 GMT
lolGriff will be overjoyed!
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Post by Crunchy Col on Nov 18, 2019 23:06:08 GMT
Are we all excited for tomorrow's debate?
No doubt they're advising Corb not to try to match BJ's BIG FACE and be calm and measured and sensible.
LET JEREMY BE JEREMY!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 23:27:01 GMT
Are we all excited for tomorrow's debate? No doubt they're advising Corb not to try to match BJ's BIG FACE and be calm and measured and sensible. LET JEREMY BE JEREMY!The depressing thing is I don't know what he can say to make a difference.
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Post by Crunchy Col on Nov 18, 2019 23:33:32 GMT
No, maybe not.
We'll get the usual Labour values pushed - plans for increased investment in the NHS, a fairer tax system, better conditions for teachers, the renationalisation of the rail network. The problem is that the Tories are now making similar promises (apart from the nationalisation), and Johnson will probably be able to put these across with more conviction and more enthusiasm.
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