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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 27, 2021 8:38:46 GMT
The biological impulse to get laid by being more attractive is something that drives a lot of human behaviour for obvious reasons. Especially when one is young. People do things for multiple reasons mind but that biological impulse is in the background of so many things we do and that's perfectly normal. The issue is not young men wanting to get laid, the issue is a small subgroup of men who abuse women and do so repeatedly.
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Post by tory on Oct 27, 2021 10:41:13 GMT
The issue, deep down, is that the rules of engagement, for want of a better term, were comprehensively torn up by sexual liberation in the sixties. Before, the reality was that, for most people, there was no sex before marriage. My father once told me that he and my mum went away on a brief holiday before they were married and he "had a chance" but that my mum said it wasn't right to do so. That would have been 1955 or so. Now, obviously there were significant issues around only having sex after being married, but one thing was that there was something akin to a code that one followed and was understood by most people.
We are slowly beginning to understand that there are guidelines around having sex, and that, actually, it's pretty fucking complicated. Some people seem to think that it's ok to have sex after your first date for example, whereas others think it should be four, and so on and so on. Things are made worse by the fact that you can join sites or apps where meeting someone to have meaningless sex is the whole purpose. Men are able to detach themselves from the meaning of sex with significant ease in comparison to women.
It is made complicated by the fact that, essentially, in most rape cases, it is pretty much one person's word against another's, which from a legal perspective is tragically never going to produce anything akin to justice
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Oct 27, 2021 10:50:20 GMT
The bar has been very low. Only recently have we gotten a vocabulary to describe, ask, refuse what is in/appropriate. Rock has been male dominated, not necessarily the best, brightest, most honorable need apply. Mythology created a certain disposableness of willing females. How did we know they were so willing? Drunk, stoned, etc., As the Dylan accusations show, not many come out unscathed, and some, possibly many were quite predatory.
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Post by tory on Oct 27, 2021 11:00:45 GMT
A friend of mine is the manager for a well-known and relatively successful UK indie/guitar band. She said that when they became moderately successful, the number of women and girls who basically lined up to have sex with them multiplied significantly. They're all middle-class home counties lads, and by all accounts have always had steady partners, so it wasn't something they exploited, but it was still there as it were, women who were happy to have sex with them because of their status and power.
I don't think personally that will EVER go away - in that many women are attracted to men of status, ability and power, just as men are attracted to beautiful women.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 11:37:26 GMT
Yeah, a few daughters of eve just ruining the narrative of abuse victims because some blokes spend hours learning guitar so they can fuck the compliant drunk/stoned women who literally beg for sex. It seems that they will find more luck in the less affluent areas of the country by all accounts. Sheesh, sometimes the lack of female posters here really is a shame.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 12:20:19 GMT
The bar has been very low. Only recently have we gotten a vocabulary to describe, ask, refuse what is in/appropriate. Not sure what this means?
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 27, 2021 12:30:03 GMT
A friend of mine is the manager for a well-known and relatively successful UK indie/guitar band. She said that when they became moderately successful, the number of women and girls who basically lined up to have sex with them multiplied significantly. They're all middle-class home counties lads, and by all accounts have always had steady partners, so it wasn't something they exploited, but it was still there as it were, women who were happy to have sex with them because of their status and power. I don't think personally that will EVER go away - in that many women are attracted to men of status, ability and power, just as men are attracted to beautiful women. Aye. Women chase men of status and men chase beauty and youth. It's a perfect storm and there are plenty willing people on both sides eager to engage but of course on such a playing field you are going to encounter ugliness and exploitation too, although the latter can be harder to discern sometimes. You are always going to get sharks who exploit that world and that's life. You can't remove all the ugliness from the world, you can only try and mitigate it but in that particular world where people are sexual commodities and sex becomes transactional ugliness will always occur. Same as Hollywood.
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Post by clive gash on Oct 27, 2021 12:31:30 GMT
The bar has been very low. Only recently have we gotten a vocabulary to describe, ask, refuse what is in/appropriate. Not sure what this means? I think GAV’s talking about the difficulty we have in labelling music PROG or PROGRESSIVE.
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Oct 27, 2021 12:33:19 GMT
The bar has been very low. Only recently have we gotten a vocabulary to describe, ask, refuse what is in/appropriate. Not sure what this means? During the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc., men behaving badly in general was accepted, the norm, etc., Over time we have gotten more savvy about behavior, fairness, appropriateness, etc., And very recently we have come to identify certain male behaviors that were accepted/glossed over ranging from unkind to misogynistic to predatory. Bowie's first meeting with Debbie Harry had him pull his penis out as he thought she was just another groupie. Thus as a groupie was she a throwaway? Being female in the context of a concert does that mean she can only be a groupie? How did he get conditioned as such? His initial response was not to consider her a peer, and he is supposed to be one of the better ones.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 12:34:59 GMT
Not sure what this means? I think GAV’s talking about the difficulty we have in labelling music PROG or PROGRESSIVE. It's only in the last couple of years that we've had the vocabulary to describe the mellotron. In the 70s you'd just have to say "That big thing....over there".
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Post by rayge on Oct 27, 2021 12:38:58 GMT
Sheesh, sometimes the lack of female posters here really is a shame. Yep, but hardly surprising given the attitude of some prolific posters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 12:56:26 GMT
Not sure what this means? During the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc., men behaving badly in general was accepted, the norm, etc., Over time we have gotten more savvy about behavior, fairness, appropriateness, etc., And very recently we have come to identify certain male behaviors that were accepted/glossed over ranging from unkind to misogynistic to predatory. Bowie's first meeting with Debbie Harry had him pull his penis out as he thought she was just another groupie. Thus as a groupie was she a throwaway? Being female in the context of a concert does that mean she can only be a groupie? How did he get conditioned as such? His initial response was not to consider her a peer, and he is supposed to be one of the better ones. Behaving that way was something you could only do if you were seen as famous or powerful. It was noting that Debbie Harry's recollection is affectionate, perhaps she's just making excuses for him because of who he was, but she doesn't seem to have felt mistreated by him in any way. www.nme.com/news/music/blondies-debbie-harry-reveals-that-david-bowie-flashed-his-very-nice-penis-after-scoring-cocaine-2552179
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Post by tory on Oct 27, 2021 12:57:00 GMT
Yeah, a few daughters of eve just ruining the narrative of abuse victims because some blokes spend hours learning guitar so they can fuck the compliant drunk/stoned women who literally beg for sex. It seems that they will find more luck in the less affluent areas of the country by all accounts. Sheesh, sometimes the lack of female posters here really is a shame. Are all women who are attracted to musicians abuse victims or people who are conveniently stoned or drunk? No. Just as not all men "take advantage" of women either. My example was merely an observation - that some women are attracted to status and power. And as I said, that will last for the ages. I would argue it's biological.
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Oct 27, 2021 13:06:35 GMT
During the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc., men behaving badly in general was accepted, the norm, etc., Over time we have gotten more savvy about behavior, fairness, appropriateness, etc., And very recently we have come to identify certain male behaviors that were accepted/glossed over ranging from unkind to misogynistic to predatory. Bowie's first meeting with Debbie Harry had him pull his penis out as he thought she was just another groupie. Thus as a groupie was she a throwaway? Being female in the context of a concert does that mean she can only be a groupie? How did he get conditioned as such? His initial response was not to consider her a peer, and he is supposed to be one of the better ones. Behaving that way was something you could only do if you were seen as famous or powerful. It was noting that Debbie Harry's recollection is affectionate, perhaps she's just making excuses for him because of who he was, but she doesn't seem to have felt mistreated by him in any way. www.nme.com/news/music/blondies-debbie-harry-reveals-that-david-bowie-flashed-his-very-nice-penis-after-scoring-cocaine-2552179indeed, of course David was being gracious, as is Debbie (white men have long had the liberty to not have to be gracious/accepting about or downplay someone's bad behavior just to get by in the world, particularly if it comes to sex)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 13:13:03 GMT
I'm not defending him, far from it. Just saying we should be wary of being offended on others behalf.
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