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Post by tory on Jan 26, 2020 11:13:32 GMT
unherd.com/2020/01/both-brexiteers-and-remainers-know-nothing-about-europe/A worthwhile and interesting read. The author I think does hit on some accurate assumptions that we do make about other countries in Europe, perhaps thinking about it conceptually and in an idealistic manner when compared to the actual reality. It feeds into my thinking that the "European identity" is a flimsy construct. What is it? At my teacher training course last week, which is in the South-East of England, we were talking about EAL - English as 1st language. When the tutor asked us how many languages we spoke, of the 42 graduates present, only two put their hands up to denote that they spoke more than one language fluently, and one of those was Hindi. Now that is just anecdotal evidence, but it does give an indication of just how asymmetric Britain is in terms of language compared to the rest of Europe, even when it comes to the highly educated. Language isn't totally indicative of what a European mindset should be, but personally I feel that it is a marker for it - a foundation as it were. It is of course brilliantly ironic that the one language all Europeans speak is the one that will be leaving.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 26, 2020 11:30:29 GMT
Leaving the EU will be seen to have been a catastrophic mistake for various reasons.
We're different from the rest of Europe in many fundamental ways, but then again that's also true for the French (particularly), the Greeks, the Danish, etc. etc. Pulling together in economic ways at least is a good thing, in my view.
Anyway fuck it all. The world seems to have a death-wish right now and there's little anybody can do to stop it.
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Post by tory on Jan 26, 2020 11:41:53 GMT
Is pulling together economically a good idea when those economies are very different from one another?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 11:50:46 GMT
You guys are racing us to see who will crumble first..We may have a slight lead..(Unless some Republican Senatorial goons find some testicular fortitude and boot Cheeto Benito and his merry band of thugs)
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Post by tory on Jan 26, 2020 12:18:29 GMT
I don't buy into this apocalyptic mindset.
I feel it's an opportunity to have a rethink and a recalibration rather than an unravelling. Brexit is going to make the EU think very hard about further integration. Whatever the elites had in mind, it clearly hasn't worked out in the way they perceived it.
There is an interesting theory about how states work, which has precedent in Rome circa 500 BC - which goes along the principle that a group of states work together or at least have mutual interests that border on competitiveness. One of them sits outside those states geographically, and when those states implode, which is inevitable given their borders and competitiveness, the outside state takes advantage. I'm not saying that is Britain, or that Britain indeed will take advantage - it may very well not, but it's an intriguing theory nonetheless.
There is absolutely no reason why a new European Union or project cannot emerge in time. It just feels that the way the EU came about has unravelled to a certain extent - Jean Monnet, the architect of the EU, was unrelenting in his principle from the very start that political union had to come about without the say so of the people who were governed - he knew this was the only way it would happen. Monnet knew that once fiscal union was there, so would political union.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 26, 2020 12:21:20 GMT
Is pulling together economically a good idea when those economies are very different from one another? In the sense of offering financial assistance, creating mutually beneficial trade deals, and EU funding available for education and business, yes. And yes, I know there were flaws in the arrangement, but I think what we're heading for is potentially far worse. We'll see.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 12:38:43 GMT
I don't buy into this apocalyptic mindset. I feel it's an opportunity to have a rethink and a recalibration rather than an unravelling. Brexit is going to make the EU think very hard about further integration. Whatever the elites had in mind, it clearly hasn't worked out in the way they perceived it. There is an interesting theory about how states work, which has precedent in Rome circa 500 BC - which goes along the principle that a group of states work together or at least have mutual interests that border on competitiveness. One of them sits outside those states geographically, and when those states implode, which is inevitable given their borders and competitiveness, the outside state takes advantage. I'm not saying that is Britain, or that Britain indeed will take advantage - it may very well not, but it's an intriguing theory nonetheless. There is absolutely no reason why a new European Union or project cannot emerge in time. It just feels that the way the EU came about has unravelled to a certain extent - Jean Monnet, the architect of the EU, was unrelenting in his principle from the very start that political union had to come about without the say so of the people who were governed - he knew this was the only way it would happen. Monnet knew that once fiscal union was there, so would political union. What happened in Rome in 500 BC may all be very interesting but it doesn't mean a lot if you're dependent on a car factory which is just about to be closed. There's a strange reluctance to face the economic reality of what we're getting into here, but as JC says we'll start seeing all the negative results of this soon enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 12:48:51 GMT
It's still pretty clear that people had and have no idea what they really want, nor what the results will be. It probably is more rewarding to immerse oneself in ancient history given the circumstances.
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Post by tory on Jan 26, 2020 12:56:52 GMT
For those who only see the negatives, do you want it not to work?
I mean, we live in a democracy and those who wanted to leave have got their way. Whatever the process, which will always be flawed, that determined how we obtained that result, that's the way forward.
Do we move forward together or not? We have to be positive in creating a new social settlement about this whole episode. There is something I feel in the fact that this is a new chapter in the country's history which is pretty significant. It might not be the one that many wanted, but that is not to say either that it will be the racist, 1950s hellhole that many seem to think it will be. There are significant issues without doubt. But as with Labour's message, which was overwhelmingly negative at the election (the country's shot to shit), narratives need to have positivity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 13:07:17 GMT
I will wait and see. But I see no reason to disguise my very real fears with a spurious optimism. To be honest that kind of wishful thinking is what's got us in this mess in the first place.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 26, 2020 13:44:45 GMT
I dunno what the longer term consequences will be. It’s not gonna be plain sailing is it but part of me also feels we may be ahead of curve and that the EU as an idea, a project might be on the way out too. That’s a gut feeling though.
Brexit is part of an anti-globalisation backlash and increasingly I think there is some common sense in this. I’m not convinced the larger vision that has been implemented over the last few decades is compatible with yer average person in the street frankly. Just in terms of social cohesion I think we need to significantly cut back and have a rethink about immigration for example
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Post by tory on Jan 26, 2020 14:10:46 GMT
A few months ago I was in a second-hand bookshop and got chatting to a French woman about Brexit. She was fairly philosophical about the whole thing and said two things that stood out. Firstly, that if France had a referendum, it would leave without any doubt. Secondly, that "Britain does not want to be the same as everyone else". There is something in that - the distinctiveness of what makes us Britain. It is a bit absurd, a bit eccentric, a bit rolling cheese down hills, a bit of unusual place names, imperial measurements and accents. Much of that IS or HAS been lost and it was our identity. Many young people have no idea about that sort of identity, particularly the metropolitan, tech savvy, upwardly mobile lot who jet off around Europe in the summer and only see the positive sides of integration.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 14:21:45 GMT
Thankfully I is foreign
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 14:29:31 GMT
And my childhood nostalgia of this country ( well it was Scotland actually) consists of memories of being called a darkie on our summer visits "home" and a constant cry of "the Perishing Gulf!" when I said I lived in Dubai in the Persian Gulf.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 26, 2020 14:40:12 GMT
A few months ago I was in a second-hand bookshop and got chatting to a French woman about Brexit. She was fairly philosophical about the whole thing and said two things that stood out. Firstly, that if France had a referendum, it would leave without any doubt. Secondly, that "Britain does not want to be the same as everyone else". There is something in that - the distinctiveness of what makes us Britain. It is a bit absurd, a bit eccentric, a bit rolling cheese down hills, a bit of unusual place names, imperial measurements and accents and bloody bollocks and more and more of it piddle widdle And don't you think other countries in the EU see THEMSELVES as special? Are we the only ones who want to hold on to our 'quaint' little 'eccentricities'? I can guarantee there's a couple in Lodz right now saying 'nowhere else in Europe do they have such a RANGE of SMOKED MEATS!'. And somewhere in Lisbon old fellas'll be talking about the unique Portuguese desire to travel the seas. With custard tarts. And I'm sick of hearing this smug bullshit you get from Brexiteers about 'respecting the democratic will'. HALF of voters wanted to stay - probably more, now. What about them? For all the talk about 'Remoaners' it's surprising we haven't seen MORE in the way of resistance - street protests and the likes. I'm pretty sure that would be the case if 'Remain' had won.
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