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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 14:58:07 GMT
I agree that "cancel culture" has become very dangerous and that good people are being shut down (or worse) for the wrong reasons. It's not like the guy is a troll like yer Tommy Robinsons, etc.
This is where we need to make a distinction. Calling a black person a "fucking ape" = racism
Quoting Shakespeare etc not racism regardless what the "victim" claims in this instance. We've elevated the subjective opinion/perspective of people to the point where it becomes truth regardless of everything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 14:58:55 GMT
I like making binary distinctions because I like arguing. Arguing makes people think, at least I hope it does. I hate common agreement on everything because it leads to a paucity of thinking. I attended a lecture yesterday where a professor of pedagogy said that the latest neuroscientific research suggests that the brain is not "set up" for thinking, which is why kids don't like school. You like certainties and clear statements, but life is full of ambiguities and shades of grey.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 15:00:22 GMT
I agree that "cancel culture" has become very dangerous and that good people are being shut down (or worse) for the wrong reasons. It's not like the guy is a troll like yer Tommy Robinsons, etc.
This is where we need to make a distinction. Calling a black person a "fucking ape" = racism
Quoting Shakespeare etc not racism regardless what the "victim" claims in this instance. We've elevated the subjective opinion/perspective of people to the point where it becomes truth regardless of everything else.
It was stupid fucking thing for him to have done. I don't think you can blame the guy for being offended.
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Post by tory on Jan 30, 2020 15:02:11 GMT
I like making binary distinctions because I like arguing. Arguing makes people think, at least I hope it does. I hate common agreement on everything because it leads to a paucity of thinking. I attended a lecture yesterday where a professor of pedagogy said that the latest neuroscientific research suggests that the brain is not "set up" for thinking, which is why kids don't like school. You like certainties and clear statements, but life is full of ambiguities and shades of grey. Do you honestly think that I'm somehow unaware of such a thing?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 15:05:41 GMT
You like certainties and clear statements, but life is full of ambiguities and shades of grey. Do you honestly think that I'm somehow unaware of such a thing? I'm sure you are, but you obviously like it as a rhetorical device.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 15:06:57 GMT
I'm not dismissing it completely and I'm not talking about movies. I'm talking about its influence on certain elements within the left and how this manifests itself in identity politics, , "sjw" and the worldview that accompanies this stuff.
It's really interesting shit but once you join the dots you start to see things like the daft Twitter shit differently because they are symptoms of something much more problematic and worrying.
#believeinG
"Join the dots"..isn't that a Jimbo phrase? I remember arguing on BCB years ago that the left, and in particular the academic left, were too focussed on identity politics and constructing narratives which weren't of any relevance to most ordinary people, so you don't have to convert me to anything there.
We just have to be careful we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Funnily enough when I wrote that I thought, "I'm sounding a bit fucking Jimbo here!". Join the dots maaaaan! C'mon brooooo, take the red pill! What do you think about chemtrails dude? Do you like the Grateful Dead?
I know it sounds a bit smug, a bit I-know-summat-you-don't but it does feel a bit like "something is happening here but you don't know what it iiiiissss, do you, Mr JOoooones" which is obviously something that is easy to push back against cos no one likes a smug cunt.
It's not conspiracy though. It's just recognising the influence of a certain strain of philosophical thought and how this has found a home in academia and has then spread into our culture at large. If I go full Jimbo then....please....slap me hard with a fish.
Watch the video and see what you think (but take the red pill first....or a nice Malbec or summat)
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 15:28:44 GMT
This is where we need to make a distinction. Calling a black person a "fucking ape" = racism
Quoting Shakespeare etc not racism regardless what the "victim" claims in this instance. We've elevated the subjective opinion/perspective of people to the point where it becomes truth regardless of everything else.
It was stupid fucking thing for him to have done. I don't think you can blame the guy for being offended.
I can see why he might interpret racist undertones but surely we have more brains than this? The quote is designed to poke fun at his ignorance and arrogance which is perfectly valid. Not everybody (and Danny Baker suffered from this too) thinks "it's a black fella, maybe I shouldn't quote this" because somebody might go, "he used the word ape!". His interpretation is an incorrect one and that should be called out. It's up to US to then go...well, he used it before and it wasn't racist then so clearly it's a quote he likes (similar to Baker). He works in an industry with people from various backgrounds and he hasn't demonstrated he's a massive racist etc. Common sense.
But this is the culture we live in now. And it's this kind of stuff which people are pushing back because it's bollocks.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 30, 2020 15:31:56 GMT
hence Brexit?
I mean COME ON
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 15:48:13 GMT
It's about a clash of beliefs, ideas, a worldview.
One side, we'll call them the "progressive" side believes immigration is great, immigration is wonderful and some even want more immigration. I'll call that the global village approach (see London).
The other side is like, hang on a minute. They are not convinced by multiculturalism to the same extent but most will recognise the need for immigration but want it more controlled and exlusive. They have concerns over integration or lack thereof. They have concerns over letting people into our country whose values and beliefs might be less compatible with our own (compounded by, let's face it, Islamism and anti-western hostility within some groups). They have concerns over services like the NHS and the jobs market and are worried immigration might stretch things too far (when they are already stretched anyway). They feel a sense of loss, perhaps, at the changing face of their towns, cities and country (none of which they actually really voted for) and maybe want to push back against that. These are legitimate concerns and human ones too. I mean if you went to Florence one day and half the city was Brits who had permanently moved there over the last few years would you not maybe express a belief that something had maybe been lost and maybe sympathise with a local who expressed the same feeling?
The "progressive" side labels all these people racists and xenophobes and thick wankers.
Etc. The culture war isn't just about PC or wokeness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 15:54:16 GMT
It was stupid fucking thing for him to have done. I don't think you can blame the guy for being offended.
I can see why he might interpret racist undertones but surely we have more brains than this? The quote is designed to poke fun at his ignorance and arrogance which is perfectly valid. Not everybody (and Danny Baker suffered from this too) thinks "it's a black fella, maybe I shouldn't quote this" because somebody might go, "he used the word ape!". His interpretation is an incorrect one and that should be called out. It's up to US to then go...well, he used it before and it wasn't racist then so clearly it's a quote he likes (similar to Baker). He works in an industry with people from various backgrounds and he hasn't demonstrated he's a massive racist etc. Common sense.
But this is the culture we live in now. And it's this kind of stuff which people are pushing back because it's bollocks.
You don't call a black person an "ape". End of. I accept that mistakes can be made, things can get misinterpreted etc. and again that demands we take a common sense approach. But if you know you're addressing a black person you don't use such language..just don't go there. As an intelligent man he really should have known better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 16:09:03 GMT
It's about a clash of beliefs, ideas, a worldview. One side, we'll call them the "progressive" side believes immigration is great, immigration is wonderful and some even want more immigration. I'll call that the global village approach (see London). The other side is like, hang on a minute. They are not convinced by multiculturalism to the same extent but most will recognise the need for immigration but want it more controlled and exlusive. They have concerns over integration or lack thereof. They have concerns over letting people into our country whose values and beliefs might be less compatible with our own (compounded by, let's face it, Islamism and anti-western hostility within some groups). They have concerns over services like the NHS and the jobs market and are worried immigration might stretch things too far (when they are already stretched anyway). They feel a sense of loss, perhaps, at the changing face of their towns, cities and country (none of which they actually really voted for) and maybe want to push back against that. These are legitimate concerns and human ones too. I mean if you went to Florence one day and half the city was Brits who had permanently moved there over the last few years would you not maybe express a belief that something had maybe been lost and maybe sympathise with a local who expressed the same feeling? The "progressive" side labels all these people racists and xenophobes and thick wankers. Etc. The culture war isn't just about PC or wokeness. Again it is possible to take a more nuanced view of that issue. It doesn't have to be a "war", or two diametrically opposed sides.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 16:09:42 GMT
I can see why he might interpret racist undertones but surely we have more brains than this? The quote is designed to poke fun at his ignorance and arrogance which is perfectly valid. Not everybody (and Danny Baker suffered from this too) thinks "it's a black fella, maybe I shouldn't quote this" because somebody might go, "he used the word ape!". His interpretation is an incorrect one and that should be called out. It's up to US to then go...well, he used it before and it wasn't racist then so clearly it's a quote he likes (similar to Baker). He works in an industry with people from various backgrounds and he hasn't demonstrated he's a massive racist etc. Common sense.
But this is the culture we live in now. And it's this kind of stuff which people are pushing back because it's bollocks.
You don't call a black person an "ape". End of. I accept that mistakes can be made, things can get misinterpreted etc. and again that demands we take a common sense approach. But if you know you're addressing a black person you don't use such language..just don't go there. As an intelligent man he really should have known better.
I'm no expert on DA BARD but is it not a dig at man in general and our collective foolishness? Therefore in this context this fella is an example of Our arrogance? The worst you could say is that's a bit unthinking and crass but we need to distinguish between "crass" and actual racism. We have lost this ability.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 16:12:17 GMT
The rules aren't agreed upon which is part of the problem. Definitions have been stretched, changed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 16:15:12 GMT
You don't call a black person an "ape". End of. I accept that mistakes can be made, things can get misinterpreted etc. and again that demands we take a common sense approach. But if you know you're addressing a black person you don't use such language..just don't go there. As an intelligent man he really should have known better.
I'm no expert on DA BARD but is it not a dig at man in general and our collective foolishness? Therefore in this context this fella is an example of Our arrogance? The worst you could say is that's a bit unthinking and crass but we need to distinguish between "crass" and actual racism. We have lost this ability. Well we haven't, otherwise we wouldn't be having the debate. I'd never heard the Shakespeare quote before. You can sometimes say things without meaning them to be taken in the way they are. I get that he had no racist intent. But you surely have to have a line? I'm trying to think of a context where calling a black guy an "ape" might be acceptable. I don't think there is one.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jan 30, 2020 16:23:52 GMT
It's about a clash of beliefs, ideas, a worldview. One side, we'll call them the "progressive" side believes immigration is great, immigration is wonderful and some even want more immigration. I'll call that the global village approach (see London). The other side is like, hang on a minute. They are not convinced by multiculturalism to the same extent but most will recognise the need for immigration but want it more controlled and exlusive. They have concerns over integration or lack thereof. They have concerns over letting people into our country whose values and beliefs might be less compatible with our own (compounded by, let's face it, Islamism and anti-western hostility within some groups). They have concerns over services like the NHS and the jobs market and are worried immigration might stretch things too far (when they are already stretched anyway). They feel a sense of loss, perhaps, at the changing face of their towns, cities and country (none of which they actually really voted for) and maybe want to push back against that. These are legitimate concerns and human ones too. I mean if you went to Florence one day and half the city was Brits who had permanently moved there over the last few years would you not maybe express a belief that something had maybe been lost and maybe sympathise with a local who expressed the same feeling? The "progressive" side labels all these people racists and xenophobes and thick wankers. Etc. The culture war isn't just about PC or wokeness. Again it is possible to take a more nuanced view of that issue. It doesn't have to be a "war", or two diametrically opposed sides. But that's where PC comes in and gets in the way. To even question im migration in any way becomes "racist". To suggest that beliefs and mores within a particular group may create issues in regards to integration (and maybe a lack of tolerance as well) is racist too and so on. People are also scared of being seen to encourage racism by being critical. You see this on the left especially in regards to Islam. There is such a lack of honesty but this sadly opens the door to yer Tommy Robinson's who have exploited something like the grooming gang scandal for years of course.
Our lack of ability to have open and frank conversations without the fear and consequences of being labelled a racist is causing us problems. I would suggest it's actually making things worse.
The challenge and it seems an impossible one at this juncture is to free ourselves from this straitjacket. This is where "PC culture"//whatever the fuck you want to call it needs to be challenged.
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