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Post by sloopjohnc on Jul 11, 2020 13:28:25 GMT
And did you tell them that's where you get the best baseball cap tips? I get my ball cap tips from no man.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 14:07:26 GMT
I don't understand what your point is. Thanks for taking the time to point that out. i don’t like your shirt. the word “shirt” was coined to describe upper body garments of both sexes. today, most people say it when they mean SHIRT. Was that an attempt at clarification?
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Sneelock
god
hey Daddy-O. I don't wanna go.
Posts: 8,509
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Post by Sneelock on Jul 11, 2020 15:00:50 GMT
Just because somebody says they don’t understand is a very poor reason to explain yourself. I said what I have to say. You don’t get it and enjoy saying so.
Do your own thing, baby.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 15:17:43 GMT
Just because somebody says they don’t understand is a very poor reason to explain yourself. I said what I have to say. It depends how interested you are in the point you're trying to make. Personally I have no problem in trying to explain something in greater clarity if it's unclear to the other person. Peace.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 11, 2020 15:52:34 GMT
and What shall we call “racism”? You know, to make it less contentious. I've stayed out of the thread because I don't have anything useful to say, but as the soi-disant word guy, It's my belief that the word 'racism' was coined to describe the now wholly discredited scientific theory/belief system (supported not only by nutters like Galton, but also heavyweights such as Darwin) that there was a hierarchy of races/ethnicities/nationalities based on brain size, with the Anglo-Saxons on top, and that the lesser breeds were not only deficient in intelligence but also in moral and physical character compared to Northern Europeans. This was the 'scientific' justification and rationalization for slavery and (the British) Empire, and was the parent of eugenics and Nazism. One can have racial prejudices (conscious or otherwise) without actually subscribing to the conscious systemic beliefs of rac ism and can also benefit from/be unaware of existing in a society in which racist beliefs and/or racial prejudices are built into the structure of society, which is what white privilege is about, as I understand it. I hope that helps hashtag language matters . In modern parlance, I think we are almost always talking about systemic racism and/or inherent bias when we invoke the word racism these days. The difference does seem to cause confusion, as those most resistant to hearing tend to view the word as a personal affront, as if the discovery of an area of latent bias should be viewed as an almost irrevocable shame - as opposed to a welcome personal insight that one might be able to grow from.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 11, 2020 16:26:23 GMT
The push behind this ultimately is the desire to create an equal society. But the first question should be.. What does an equal society look like? The word “equality” comes up a lot in “rights-focused” movements. I think it ties back to the Constitution’s “all men are created equal.” The basic idea being that all people are equally valuable. The notion that society should be equal (as opposed to the people within one) is less clear. If the whole thing were a game and each generation started at the same starting line - then sure... you’d want things to be equal. But it isn’t. Some people work their whole lives with the express goal of giving their children a leg up. I would like to do so for mine. There is little meaning to life if we aren’t working to make it better for further generations. So to the extent that an “equal society” means that everyone has exactly the same tools - that’s probably a non-starter. Nobody envisions a world like that. What we are discussing is dismantling the structural inequities that put one kind of person on a glide-path, but cause another to face constant turbulence.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Jul 11, 2020 17:39:56 GMT
The push behind this ultimately is the desire to create an equal society. But the first question should be.. What does an equal society look like? The word “equality” comes up a lot in “rights-focused” movements. I think it ties back to the Constitution’s “all men are created equal.” The basic idea being that all people are equally valuable. The notion that society should be equal (as opposed to the people within one) is less clear. If the whole thing were a game and each generation started at the same starting line - then sure... you’d want things to be equal. But it isn’t. Some people work their whole lives with the express goal of giving their children a leg up. I would like to do so for mine. There is little meaning to life if we aren’t working to make it better for further generations. So to the extent that an “equal society” means that everyone has exactly the same tools - that’s probably a non-starter. Nobody envisions a world like that. What we are discussing is dismantling the structural inequities that put one kind of person on a glide-path, but cause another to face constant turbulence. I equate equality with opportunity for everyone in society. I think that's why reparations is cropping up re: economic opportunity. Opportunity for access to child care, healthcare, education, jobs, Harry Nilsson albums, etc.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 11, 2020 18:26:55 GMT
There’s actually a pretty big debate around the concept of equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I’m personally not all that convinced that either is a realistic goal.
I think that speaking of people as equally valuable is more useful. There’s often a zero-sumness to opportunity (only so many places in Harvard and Yale - and no way to actually make those opportunities equal, etc), and equality of outcome can be a race to the bottom in a country of millions. So what I believe we really want is a society that doesn’t see one person as important and another as fungible.
From a systemic POV, I think equality means a lack of barriers to success woven into our laws and our policies.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Jul 11, 2020 18:41:26 GMT
There’s actually a pretty big debate around the concept of equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I’m personally not all that convinced that either is a realistic goal. I think that speaking of people as equally valuable is more useful. There’s often a zero-sumness to opportunity (only so many places in Harvard and Yale - and no way to actually make those opportunities equal, etc), and equality of outcome can be a race to the bottom in a country of millions. So what I believe we really want is a society that doesn’t see one person as important and another as fungible. From a systemic POV, I think equality means a lack of barriers to success woven into our laws and our policies. When people get lost in semantics or parsing definitions it leaves me cold. Talk about privilege? I think your last sentence nails it.
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Post by Crunchy Col on Jul 11, 2020 18:59:12 GMT
Think how much better things would be if we all convuned our tarafado ringe!
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Post by sloopjohnc on Jul 11, 2020 19:36:24 GMT
Think how much better things would be if we all convuned our tarafado ringe!I got your tarafado ringe right here, buddy.
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Post by Crunchy Col on Jul 11, 2020 19:43:33 GMT
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Post by cousinlou on Jul 11, 2020 21:28:02 GMT
There’s actually a pretty big debate around the concept of equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I’m personally not all that convinced that either is a realistic goal. I think that speaking of people as equally valuable is more useful. There’s often a zero-sumness to opportunity (only so many places in Harvard and Yale - and no way to actually make those opportunities equal, etc), and equality of outcome can be a race to the bottom in a country of millions. So what I believe we really want is a society that doesn’t see one person as important and another as fungible. From a systemic POV, I think equality means a lack of barriers to success woven into our laws and our policies. What would be good examples of barriers to succes?
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Jul 11, 2020 21:40:58 GMT
There’s actually a pretty big debate around the concept of equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I’m personally not all that convinced that either is a realistic goal. I think that speaking of people as equally valuable is more useful. There’s often a zero-sumness to opportunity (only so many places in Harvard and Yale - and no way to actually make those opportunities equal, etc), and equality of outcome can be a race to the bottom in a country of millions. So what I believe we really want is a society that doesn’t see one person as important and another as fungible. From a systemic POV, I think equality means a lack of barriers to success woven into our laws and our policies. What would be good examples of barriers to success? In the US, in the south you had segregation of everything, separate and unequal: schools, public works, hotels, etc., In the South there were Jim Crow laws that made it difficult for blacks to vote by requiring various kinds of identification, payments and testing. They also forbid intermarriage of races. Throughout the US there was 'red-lining' which Identified whole swaths of cities, towns, neighborhoods that could not be sold to blacks and designated areas that could. During the 60s lots of urban renewal projects in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila, DC, etc., (highways, hospitals, parks, etc.,) were built right through, or in place of traditional black neighborhoods because they did not have the political/legal clout to resist. For those that could afford a house, banks and mortgage companies traditionally charged them higher processing fees and 2-5% higher on loan interest. Universal school testing that is specific to the predominant white culture that you have not been allowed to successfully participate in. Inner city schools are traditionally black and brown and are not as well funded as white suburban schools. Because of the Tuskegee experiment and forced sterilization from '20s-'50s there is a mistrust of the traditional white (male) medical establishment. The doctor who pioneered chemo therapy essentially did unsanctioned experiments and testing on the Puerto Rican population because he considered them "subhuman". This deep mistrust is apparent in black specific conspiracy theories about doctors, hospitals, medicine, mental health diagnosis, even Coca Cola.
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Sneelock
god
hey Daddy-O. I don't wanna go.
Posts: 8,509
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Post by Sneelock on Jul 11, 2020 22:10:38 GMT
COVID fatalities too. I hate to be grumpy & inflexible on the days I’m not enjoying it. Still, I feel the same way about the subject of this thread as I do the racism thread. Everybody knows what it is.
We all need our little hobbies but I have no use for these complicated Semantics Obstacle Courses that spring up every time something happens so heinous that people are in the streets.
I need to worry about people I love when they walk or drive or buy a bag of fucking Skittles. We know what “White privilege” means. I think parsing it is basically a stalling tactic.
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