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Post by sloopjohnc on Sept 25, 2020 17:03:16 GMT
And again... I’m not just talking about songwriting. I’m talking about the Wrecking Crew, and The Funk Brothers, and The Mar-Kays - and all of the people who used to come together collaboratively to elevate the music we heard. Somewhere along the way there was this mythos that emerged that four primitive teens could dispense with all of that by simply rolling tape and barreling through. And of course - that did happen a few times, and it WAS glorious and liberating. But then we kept trying to make lightning strike to increasingly dull results. Why do I feel like you're trying to expand your thesis to prove your point?
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 25, 2020 17:21:25 GMT
And again... I’m not just talking about songwriting. I’m talking about the Wrecking Crew, and The Funk Brothers, and The Mar-Kays - and all of the people who used to come together collaboratively to elevate the music we heard. Somewhere along the way there was this mythos that emerged that four primitive teens could dispense with all of that by simply rolling tape and barreling through. And of course - that did happen a few times, and it WAS glorious and liberating. But then we kept trying to make lightning strike to increasingly dull results. Why do I feel like you're trying to expand your thesis to prove your point? Go back and read my first post. This is exactly what I was getting at. I’m just pulling it back to my thesis, as opposed to a debate about singer-songwriters vs. punk songwriters - which isn’t really a thing I care about.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 25, 2020 17:25:52 GMT
Sort of. It’s like that line I described earlier from psychedelia to disco. The mechanics were similar. Both were about constructing a sound in the studio. But the intention of one was to take the listener on a psychedelic journey, and the intention of the latter was to make a commercial product. There are roughly three kinds of professional songwriters today. You’ve got Max Martin and a host of Max Martin wannabes constructing product for the top 40 - often by committee. You’ve got hip-hop artists finding a particular beat and adding lyrics on top. Finally, you’ve got country music songwriters trying to crack the country charts puzzle. Anyone else doing anything else is pretty much a niche operator. What there really isn’t anymore, is a market for interesting songs. Well ok , apart from motown, which artists since Dylan showed the way from the mid sixties onwards who don't write songs are actually any good? How many great albums are not artist penned. Looks to me that self penned songs have been the mainstay for decades. They have been. But Jimmy Webb had a whole career post-Dylan. So did PF Sloan and a bunch of others. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Dylan and The Beatles all started the process of killing Tin Pan Alley. But punk nailed the coffin shut.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Sept 25, 2020 17:26:33 GMT
Why do I feel like you're trying to expand your thesis to prove your point? Go back and read my first post. This is exactly what I was getting at. I’m just pulling it back to my thesis, as opposed to a debate about singer-songwriters vs. punk songwriters - which isn’t really a thing I care about. The old "Go back and read my first post" tactic. You have to get up pretty early in the morning. . .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 17:37:27 GMT
Well ok , apart from motown, which artists since Dylan showed the way from the mid sixties onwards who don't write songs are actually any good? How many great albums are not artist penned. Looks to me that self penned songs have been the mainstay for decades. They have been. But Jimmy Webb had a whole career post-Dylan. So did PF Sloan and a bunch of others. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Dylan and The Beatles all started the process of killing Tin Pan Alley. But punk nailed the coffin shut. And here was me thinking Dominic Cummings was the mastermind behind Brexit and Boris. So basically 60 plus years of artists writing their own material is what? Do you want to go back to the days of several artists releasing their interpretation of tin Pan alley penned numbers. I think the singular influence you seek is now down to producers.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 25, 2020 18:20:14 GMT
They have been. But Jimmy Webb had a whole career post-Dylan. So did PF Sloan and a bunch of others. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Dylan and The Beatles all started the process of killing Tin Pan Alley. But punk nailed the coffin shut. And here was me thinking Dominic Cummings was the mastermind behind Brexit and Boris. So basically 60 plus years of artists writing their own material is what? Do you want to go back to the days of several artists releasing their interpretation of tin Pan alley penned numbers. I think the singular influence you seek is now down to producers. I’m not trying to go back anywhere. I’m just describing why I think punk/disco took music down roads that made me less interested.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 19:19:49 GMT
Ah , well that's kinda different from where I thought you were going. Actually stock Aitken & Waterman kind of killed whatever punk and disco awakened. Studio 54 and CBGB was it ever so vibrant? Heaven - pretty much everywhere was exchanged for hit man and her and the record industry pulling the strings. Shame.
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Post by DarknessFish on Sept 25, 2020 19:46:22 GMT
Ah , well that's kinda different from where I thought you were going. Actually stock Aitken & Waterman kind of killed whatever punk and disco awakened. Studio 54 and CBGB was it ever so vibrant? Heaven - pretty much everywhere was exchanged for hit man and her and the record industry pulling the strings. Shame. Couldn't the argument be made that Stock Aitken and Waterman did exactly the same job that Davey is heralding the wrecking crew for? Taking the lesser music that the individual artist made, and elevating it for public consumption. I mean, I'm not making that argument, and I couldn't do it with a straight face. But I'm not sure how you separate the two in a devil's advocaat kind of way.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 25, 2020 20:12:03 GMT
Ah , well that's kinda different from where I thought you were going. Actually stock Aitken & Waterman kind of killed whatever punk and disco awakened. Studio 54 and CBGB was it ever so vibrant? Heaven - pretty much everywhere was exchanged for hit man and her and the record industry pulling the strings. Shame. Couldn't the argument be made that Stock Aitken and Waterman did exactly the same job that Davey is heralding the wrecking crew for? Taking the lesser music that the individual artist made, and elevating it for public consumption. I mean, I'm not making that argument, and I couldn't do it with a straight face. But I'm not sure how you separate the two in a devil's advocaat kind of way. It is analogous to the line I draw from psych to disco, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 11:43:41 GMT
A devil's advocaat sounds tasty.
You could argue that the backlash against disco (which was no doubt fuelled by racism and homophobia) saved the disco scene in some ways, it took away a lot of the monopoly of the big labels and put the onus back on the DJs and the undergound, where it would evolve into various house and techno scenes. Or maybe I'm simplifying too much.
It's disco for sure though. More sonically interesting, more soulful, more fun.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 12:01:06 GMT
My experience of them
Punk was the (middle and upper middle class) kids being "angry" and cool (before going to uni and the professions)* Disco was fun
(*The two punkiest girls I knew became bank managers in Tunbridge Wells)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 12:36:17 GMT
My experience of them Punk was the (middle and upper middle class) kids being "angry" and cool (before going to uni and the professions)* Disco was fun (*The two punkiest girls I knew became bank managers in Tunbridge Wells) Wow.
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fange
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Post by fange on Sept 26, 2020 12:45:59 GMT
I picked both because deep down both have meant and still mean a LOT to me. But in terms of pure listening time these days, my disco side wins pretty clearly.
Some of the European disco stuff i didn't have a chance to hear back then has been fascinating to discover these days through the net, a deep and glittery rabbit hole that smells slightly sweaty but sounds oh so good.
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Post by bungo the mungo on Sept 26, 2020 13:01:46 GMT
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~ / % ? *
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Sept 26, 2020 13:04:10 GMT
I looked at it as a continuation of soul, lots of great voices, and grooves, but ironically not necessarily done best by the established soul singers, but better by the singers that were having their moment(usually female). As there were so many studios around here at that moment heard lots that mostly went unheard. Up until five years ago there was an archive here that collected/cataloged everything of the era (40-50,000 pcs) then it went dark due to landlord problems.
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