nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 19:19:06 GMT
I think Bowie and Willie Nelson and Townes Van Zandt and Kevin Ayers and Leonard Cohen and Andy Partridge have all written tons of great songs, yes I'm getting to the stage of repeating myself here, but they all seem very minor ( well not Cohen but I think he's a slightly different case). I mean there's not much written by them that's known to the wider public, where's their equivalent of Starman, Life on Mars or Heroes? It feels as if people are just naming their favourite cult artists. Saying Willie Nelson seems "minor" in relation to Bowie is, very much, a British perspective. I'm quite certain that Nelson has sold more albums in America than Bowie, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more Americans can name a Willie Nelson song than a David Bowie song.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 19:24:51 GMT
..well maybe. But country is pretty niche. Where do we go with this..there's probably a guy in China who has sold millions who neither of us have heard of.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jan 10, 2020 19:25:35 GMT
Speaking of repeating oneself, I am speaking exclusively of songcraft. "The wider public" is not of the slightest consideration to me.
In sheer numbers of great songs, I can think of dozens who are at least comparable.
You wanna talk 'cultural import,' that's a different conversation. But even there - Bowie was not culturally important in my urban High School. I suspect he was in yours.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 19:27:56 GMT
I'm getting to the stage of repeating myself here, but they all seem very minor ( well not Cohen but I think he's a slightly different case). I mean there's not much written by them that's known to the wider public, where's their equivalent of Starman, Life on Mars or Heroes? It feels as if people are just naming their favourite cult artists. Saying Willie Nelson seems "minor" in relation to Bowie is, very much, a British perspective. I'm quite certain that Nelson has sold more albums in America than Bowie, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more Americans can name a Willie Nelson song than a David Bowie song. I mean, ten of Nelson's singles reached the American Top 40, and fourteen of Bowie's did... But on top of those ten, Nelson also had 45 (!!!) songs reach the top ten on American country charts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 19:28:13 GMT
Speaking of repeating oneself, I am speaking exclusively of songcraft. "The wider public" is not of the slightest consideration to me. In sheer numbers of great songs, I can think of dozens who are at least comparable. You wanna talk 'cultural import,' that's a different conversation. But even there - Bowie was not culturally important in my urban High School. I suspect he was in yours. Writing songs people have heard of is quite an important part of songcraft I'd argue, one someone like Kevin Ayres has obviously failed at. The music snob approach can only carry you so far.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jan 10, 2020 19:28:20 GMT
..well maybe. But country is pretty niche. Where do we go with this..there's probably a guy in China who has sold millions who neither of us have heard of. You mean, even when people talk about 'cultural importance' they are really speaking of their culture and their experience? Really??
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 19:29:22 GMT
Saying Willie Nelson seems "minor" in relation to Bowie is, very much, a British perspective. I'm quite certain that Nelson has sold more albums in America than Bowie, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more Americans can name a Willie Nelson song than a David Bowie song. I mean, ten of Nelson's singles reached the American Top 40, and fourteen of Bowie's did... So Bowie was more popular then. Glad we've got that sorted!
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 19:31:18 GMT
..well maybe. But country is pretty niche. Where do we go with this..there's probably a guy in China who has sold millions who neither of us have heard of. I'm sure there is some Chinese guy out there who's sold millions. But again, it's all about perspective, and there is a very clear difference in perspective between the US and the UK when it comes to Bowie. He was never as big here as he was (and is) over there. And while country may be "niche" in the UK, it's among the more popular types of music in the US, with a listenership that's larger than the entire UK population. Plus, we really kicked your butts in the American Revolution.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jan 10, 2020 19:31:19 GMT
Damn, you're all over the place, G. Sales don't matter, but familiarity does? Then familiarity doesn't matter because country is 'niche'? Bowie isn't 'niche' in the slightest?
I'd dispute your argument if you had a consistent one.
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Post by Cousin Lou on Jan 10, 2020 19:36:32 GMT
I'm getting to the stage of repeating myself here, but they all seem very minor ( well not Cohen but I think he's a slightly different case). I mean there's not much written by them that's known to the wider public, where's their equivalent of Starman, Life on Mars or Heroes? It feels as if people are just naming their favourite cult artists. Saying Willie Nelson seems "minor" in relation to Bowie is, very much, a British perspective. I'm quite certain that Nelson has sold more albums in America than Bowie, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more Americans can name a Willie Nelson song than a David Bowie song. It may be a limited perspective but it’s not restricted to just the Brits. I am sure that in the whole world - outside the US, and that’s 95 % of the world population- people are more likely to name a Bowie song than a Nelson one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 19:45:15 GMT
Damn, you're all over the place, G. Sales don't matter, but familiarity does? Then familiarity doesn't matter because country is 'niche'? Bowie isn't 'niche' in the slightest? I'd dispute your argument if you had a consistent one. It's absolutely consistent. I wouldn't reduce Bowie's importance to merely 'songcraft', but seeing as that's the criteria we're judging him on, I mention songs he's written that have had a huge impact for their originality and memorability, songs like "Space Oddity", "Life on Mars", "Heroes", "Starman" etc. (I'm naming his most famous songs here not necessarily my own favourites) and you give me what in return..Kevin Ayres? I mean you ask Skope to name a favourite songwriter and he'll say Dan Treacy, ask DF and he'll say the guy from Coil etc. We all have our cult, personalised favourites, but it doesn't mean a great deal in a wider context because without some common ground, an attempt to move beyond the purely personal, there's nothing to really talk about.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 19:45:59 GMT
Saying Willie Nelson seems "minor" in relation to Bowie is, very much, a British perspective. I'm quite certain that Nelson has sold more albums in America than Bowie, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more Americans can name a Willie Nelson song than a David Bowie song. It may be a limited perspective but it’s not restricted to just the Brits. I am sure that in the whole world - outside the US, and that’s 95 % of the world population- people are more likely to name a Bowie song than a Nelson one. I'd hazard a guess that more people couldn't name a song by either! But I will concede that, on a world-wide level, Bowie has a greater level of fame.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jan 10, 2020 19:52:00 GMT
Damn, you're all over the place, G. Sales don't matter, but familiarity does? Then familiarity doesn't matter because country is 'niche'? Bowie isn't 'niche' in the slightest? I'd dispute your argument if you had a consistent one. It's absolutely consistent. I wouldn't reduce Bowie's importance to merely 'songcraft', but seeing as that's the criteria we're judging him on, I mention songs he's written that have had a huge impact for their originality and memorability, songs like "Space Oddity", "Life on Mars", "Heroes", "Starman" etc. (I'm naming his most famous songs here not necessarily my own favourites) and you give me what in return..Kevin Ayres? I mean you ask Skope to name a favourite songwriter and he'll say Dan Treacy, ask DF and he'll say the guy from Coil etc. We all have our cult, personalised favourites, but it doesn't mean a great deal in a wider context because without some common ground, an attempt to move beyond the purely personal, there's nothing to really talk about. Ayers. And no, that's not all I gave you.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Jan 10, 2020 19:54:09 GMT
Plus, 'songcraft' is inevitably a subjective matter, which is a point that I've been consistent about.
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Post by *LARK* on Jan 10, 2020 19:57:03 GMT
Damn, you're all over the place, G. Sales don't matter, but familiarity does? Then familiarity doesn't matter because country is 'niche'? Bowie isn't 'niche' in the slightest? I'd dispute your argument if you had a consistent one. This is why we need to define our terms, as I've already said. But people aren't really interested in that, I suppose. They just want to win the fight.
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