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Post by oh oooh on Oct 19, 2021 23:27:43 GMT
Yeah, it was lop-sided. I find the early years of nearly all acts the most interesting, but in this particular case it's been worked over a fair bit and it DID take up a lot of the film.
I think without Jonathan they wouldn't have had much at all to work from for the later years.
Still - I can't say I was disappointed.
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Sneelock
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Post by Sneelock on Oct 19, 2021 23:34:20 GMT
me neither.
I signed up for a Todd Haynes movie about the Velvet Underground & I feel like that's what I got.
I was surprised it started with Cale and the artsy stuff but that makes sense to me. Cale & Reed were simpatico when they hooked up. as it went along Cale's contributions must have been driving Reed as crazy as that droning did Cale's New York neighbors.
I like those first two albums a lot but with Cale and Without is certainly how to assess that band. it does end suddenly but I think it suits that band's unique place.
the movie ain't for everybody but, hell VU ain't for everybody. it's an unusual movie celebrating an unusual contribution to rock and roll.
I loved it.
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Post by Charlie O. on Oct 19, 2021 23:42:38 GMT
I still haven't seen it (!) but I expect to in the next couple of days.
Does it spend any time on Reed's Pickwick song factory period? To me that's more interesting than LaMonte Young could ever dream of being. My guess is that Todd Haynes doesn't agree with me on that.
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Post by oh oooh on Oct 19, 2021 23:45:29 GMT
It does, yes. I remember seeing about five variations on the PICKWICK typeface - or am I thinking of something else?
But yeah, I kicked my heels to 'The Ostrich' until the woman behind me told me to shush 😡
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Sneelock
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Post by Sneelock on Oct 19, 2021 23:53:35 GMT
SPOILER ALERT: Lou’s sister does the Ostrich! She’s no Mary Woronov but it’s still pretty great!
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Post by oh oooh on Oct 19, 2021 23:54:59 GMT
oh YEAH! wasn't that through the closing credits? I'm glad I stayed 🙂
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Post by oh oooh on Oct 19, 2021 23:57:48 GMT
here's the other doc - Doug Yule, mouthy half-baked journos, worth a watch
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 7:32:43 GMT
here's the other doc - Doug Yule, mouthy half-baked journos, worth a watch Who's that singing on 'Venus...' around the 4.00 minute mark? It ain't Lou.
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Post by oh oooh on Oct 20, 2021 7:54:30 GMT
I would guess it's Cale.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 20, 2021 7:56:07 GMT
I think so too. On one of the bootlegs there's a version of him singing it.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 20, 2021 9:16:42 GMT
But Cale's background was the avant-garde. LaMonte Young, Cage, all that drone stuff. That's at the heart of much of the early work so it's inevitable it was focused on. Fair enough if you think it's silly or whatever but that's what made the band special, what gave them weight. Without it they'd have been just another bar band. And the Factory stuff is cool, it was great to hear first-hand anecdotes. The place was a hive of creativity, nobody was sitting around - as they took pains to point out. Well, it's the combo of Lou's songwriting and rock n roll instincts combined with that stuff that made them special but the drone and the sounds certainly gave them a sonic weight and weirdness that elevates the whole thing. I just feel it's one of these slightly lopsided interpretations though where people big up the avant garde element cos that's what music journo and arty Factory types likes to do and overlook the other stuff. I mean when Cale left were they "just another bar band?". The same applies to Lou of course where you get the rock n roll poet angle and Lou claiming that lyrics are the same as serious literature and I think, "that's bollocks" but it almost becomes accepted as fact, as part of the narrative, the elevation of rock n roll into serious ART. Not that he wasn't a very good, distinctive lyricist but he's not a poet although I guess Lou's pretentiousness is part of what made him special so you accept it to some degree (same with Jim Morrison). Factory just looks like a group of pretentious types arsing about to me with the usual scenesters and groupie types hanging around cos of Warhol and because they want to be famous basically. I'm sure it was exciting and maybe it's just my age but these days I look at these types and their "art" and mostly laugh at the indulgent uselessness of it all. But....out of that scene came something great which goes to show that a bit of pretentiousness and arty farty bollocks can be a good thing if it's rooted in something deeper and simpler, more truthful and that, I guess is the essence of the band.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 20, 2021 9:20:27 GMT
But Cale's background was the avant-garde. LaMonte Young, Cage, all that drone stuff. That's at the heart of much of the early work so it's inevitable it was focused on. Fair enough if you think it's silly or whatever but that's what made the band special, what gave them weight. Without it they'd have been just another bar band. It's an important part of their musical origin story, BUT...my experience in the theater today was that 2/3 or 3/4 of the movie felt like "pre-history"/setup, and then once the Velvet Underground start recording, THAT story seems to fly by far too quickly (for me). I'd have taken 10 minutes on "The Gift" alone. Yeah, I mean I understand it couldn't be some Classic Album style doc with Cale at the mixing desk with the multi-tracks talking about Murder Mystery for ten minutes but, shit, I wanted some of that stuff!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 9:31:11 GMT
Richman Was the highlight. Some actual childlike enthusiasm about the VU as opposed to art tossers pontificating. They overstated the artiness at the expense of the rock n roll. Ooo Lou Reed, poet, Rimbaud etc. Please. Haven't seen it yet, but the "artiness" of The Velvets and that NY bohemian millieu they came out of is absolutely core to their identity and what made them so different. I don't think you can overstate it. They weren't Creedance Clearwater Revival.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 20, 2021 10:30:58 GMT
Richman Was the highlight. Some actual childlike enthusiasm about the VU as opposed to art tossers pontificating. They overstated the artiness at the expense of the rock n roll. Ooo Lou Reed, poet, Rimbaud etc. Please. Haven't seen it yet, but the "artiness" of The Velvets and that NY bohemian millieu they came out of is absolutely core to their identity and what made them so different. I don't think you can overstate it. They weren't Creedance Clearwater Revival. I didn't need 45 minutes on it. It felt like more of a documentary about the NY art scene with some VU thrown in before the focus changes to the VU itself but that part feels rushed and left me wanting more of that shit and less of the other stuff. Lou and Cale's younger years are touched on but I wanted more of that stuff too as a way of understanding their personalities and what informed them. For example, Cale's Mum has breast cancer, goes in for an op and then vanishes and it's never explained what actually happened. Did she die then presumably? People talk about Lou's extreme personality and his "insecurity" but we get little exploration of his childhood and why he may have been like that. Was it just some rebellion against his Dad and his suburban upbringing ultimately that led to his drug abuse and transgressiveness? They talk about the electro shock therapy and Lou visiting gay bars but then his sister makes some comments that I assumed alluded to some of these stories in a way that suggests they are not necessarily true or greatly exaggerated but nothing is followed up on. I wanted someone to ask her what she meant. They talk a bit about Lou's love of rock n roll....doo wop, some Bo Diddley clips are shown and we get some talk about Pickwick records and his desire to be a rock n roll star but it was a little bit glossed over and I wanted more of that period too because it's Lou learning to be a songwriter. Of course New York is important to their identity as is the art scene - like I say, they are a product of that to some degree - but it just seemed like Haynes was focused more on that because that's what appeals to him as an artist.
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Post by Charlie O. on Oct 20, 2021 13:45:27 GMT
Who's that singing on 'Venus...' around the 4.00 minute mark? It ain't Lou. It is Cale. The EPI had some gigs lined up in Chicago and Lou was in the hospital with hepatitis so Cale took over singing duties, Mo switched to bass, and their original drummer Angus Maclise filled in. And someone made an arty film of it.
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