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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 6, 2019 19:25:27 GMT
What I would like to see is a reasoned view on why people vote Tory or are right wing that doesn't couch it in the "oh they're racist / sexist / selfish cunts" argument. I see so little of that from anyone on the left that it has sort of eradicated any faith I had in people from that persuasion being able to engage in arguments without resorting to that sort of thing. I appreciate why people vote for and support left-wing causes. I don't agree with them and reserve the right to counter their views. What I rarely see is an understanding from the left on why people vote differently. Lazy John Coan answer: why do you think that might be? You might have a hard time with those teachers, T! I've literally never met one with right-wing views...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2019 19:25:47 GMT
I don't find either you or Toby any different or more open minded than those on the left. You choose your sources to support your own views, it's called confirmation bias. I honestly don't know what you and Toby want from us, are we closed minded because we disagree with you? Neither can I be bothered writing a long post on why people vote Tory, what's the point of that? What are my views? Politically? What am I? You are close minded because you actually believe left wing people are smarter, more thoughtful and principled as you said recently. That is prejudice. You are close minded because you are still a socialist when the majority of the rest of us, including those on the left have understood the real world consequences of this outdated ideology and moved on long ago. Again, the real world contradicts your beliefs but your beliefs don't change. That's close minded. There are sorts of modern versions of socialism. That's your own bias speaking again. To be honest if you regard anyone on the left as being part of a brainwashed cult then it's pointless me trying to dissuade you.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 6, 2019 19:39:31 GMT
What are my views? Politically? What am I? You are close minded because you actually believe left wing people are smarter, more thoughtful and principled as you said recently. That is prejudice. You are close minded because you are still a socialist when the majority of the rest of us, including those on the left have understood the real world consequences of this outdated ideology and moved on long ago. Again, the real world contradicts your beliefs but your beliefs don't change. That's close minded. There are sorts of modern versions of socialism. That's your own bias speaking again. To be honest if you regard anyone on the left as being part of a brainwashed cult then it's pointless me trying to dissuade you. I knew that would go down well. I'm happy to support a mixed economy. I'm not some free market libertarian. I never said anyone on the left is part of a brainwashed cult. Maybe I wasn't clear but I am talking about the kind of group think, identity politics that you find on the left and on the right and how it fucks your brain using my own experience as an example. When you take a step back from that identity I'd liken to leaving a cult, as some kind of analogy as to how being LEFT WING or RIGHT WING isn't necessarily a good thing. We all have our confirmation biases - yes I know what it is G - but you're just adding another level of bullshit. Left wingers are smarter and more principled than right wingers. You can dodge the obvious implications of that statement but that's some cult bollocks right there. Your continued defence of Corbyn and, in particular, your interpretation of the anti-semitic issue was rooted in this too. Enjoy the rest of your night x
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Post by tory on Nov 6, 2019 20:07:25 GMT
I think the issue I have with left-wing politics is that it's ultimately a house of cards. A rotten edifice that could collapse. We saw it with Blair - a bunch of people who grew up as ultra-Maoists or Trotskyists, who, once they got a sniff of serious entrenched power, just reverted to being the people that they supposedly hated. They all sent their kids to private schools, they flaunted their considerable wealth and, really, they were just conservatives with red ties. They just couldn't admit it to themselves more than anything else. It's the Diane Abbotts of this world, who say one thing and do another. With people like that, I just don't trust them to be running the country because they are telling themselves and everyone lies that ultimately they don't believe. Middle-class Left-wingers are happy to sup at the nipple of prosperity, yet will also call for things to be nationalised without really understanding any of the economic consequences of such a thing. I remember my sister, who has voted Labour all her life and was always furious at people who "were lucky to have rich parents who helped them get on the housing ladder", didn't say a word when the £50K in cash my dad left her was deposited in her account. I didn't see her running to the taxman on that one. With money in particular I think this aspect of left-wing thought is in very perilous territory. People are happy to see wealth being distributed apart from their own.
And yet, one can totally understand why people are attracted to it. I think in a secular age it does provide many people with a narrative or meaning that is similar in many ways to Christianity - a form of moral superiority as it were. There's the collective feel of it, the crowds, the direct action, the sense of being part of something, a narrative that is there to support. I remember the fervour of Blair's election in 1997 for example and D-Ream. I mean FFS!
Conservatives recognise that there are difficult truths out there that don't conform to comforting narratives. That certain groups of people may have cultural behaviours that are problematic or, alternatively successful for example. But ultimately I think true conservatism is the fact that we don't change as people. We're the same as we've ever been for centuries and that it is better to be a pessimist - because idealism is too problematic. Progress is a chimera because by its very idea, it suggests that what we did before was rubbish - we are progressing from dark times to better times - but in reality where we are is built on what we have done before. So to dismiss what we have done seems farcical.
It's like when people think that they can change a person when they enter a relationship. And in virtually all instances relationships like that fail because they don't.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 6, 2019 20:52:09 GMT
I think you make some good points.
Maybe people who see themselves as left-wingers talk in terms of ideals, and don't look to specific individuals to lead them to a better place. You don't meet many Labour supporters today who'd disagree with your assessment of Blair. He might even be more hated by those who are more on 'his side', as they feel/felt let down. And yeah, maybe Conservative voters see themselves as more pragmatic, less 'pie in the sky'. That is absolutely what I've found when talking to them. You know, 'get a grip!', the old stories about Derek Hatton. It all stinks. I think Dougie finds this kind of thing particularly galling.
But at root, and I have to admit this of myself, is that there APPEARS to be something ideologically more sound about the ideals of the Left. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Essentially it comes down to fairness. Helping the less well-off. Who could reasonably argue about that? You see why there's those righteous flags flying! They're RIGHT! But it's rare to see these ideals carried out. Maybe it's not even possible. 'house of cards', yeah, perhaps.
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Post by tory on Nov 6, 2019 21:07:00 GMT
Of course the Left is ideologically more sound. We all know that life would be a lot better if we didn't have to walk past beggars on the street and that wealthy people worked selflessly for others and gave their wealth away.
But the reality is that you can never truly have a society where everyone does something of equal value. Because of that, people need to be renumerated in some way for their work and I struggle to see how you can carry out something like that without inequality. Furthermore, men and women are biologically asymmetrical, which means that at a very fundamental level of society there is inequality which can never be resolved.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 6, 2019 21:12:57 GMT
Of course the Left is ideologically more sound. Right. So what were you saying earlier about not understanding the Left not trying to engage with Tory voters like yourself?
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Post by tory on Nov 6, 2019 21:18:03 GMT
Ideology and feet on the ground Pragmatism are two different things. That's the heart of it really - the Left has great ideas, but the Right understands compromise and negotiation more readily. I'd say that on social conservatism, what one has is a disposition, rather than an ideology. This is a great article on Michael Oakeshott and his "disposition" perspective. www.firstthings.com/article/2012/02/a-disposition-of-delight
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Post by tory on Nov 7, 2019 11:52:56 GMT
Tom Watson is a bit of a dick so I'm not sure what impact him resigning has really. A former Labour minister telling people to vote Tory isnt great though.
Still, I do think that this election will be a lot closer than it seems.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 7, 2019 13:21:17 GMT
Paedophiles of Britain! Your time is almost up! Tom Watson is coming for ya!!!
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Nov 7, 2019 13:34:53 GMT
I'm too busy living to write more about this but, first of all, every single one of us on this board (me included) is politically impotent, and essentially pissing in the wind in these threads. Secondly, ALL politicians, whatever their stated allegiances, are partial, use spin, tell 'lies' (as if there is any such thing as objective truth, it's all choices: the ones we think of as good, decent, honest, are the ones who think or act in a way similar to the way we see ourselves) and are probably more flawed as human beings than most because IMO to crave the power to affect the lives of others is an indicator of personality characteristics that I read as flaws. And there was a thirdly and a fourthly, but I really do gotta go.
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Post by rayge on Nov 7, 2019 19:45:22 GMT
And there was a thirdly and a fourthly, but I really do gotta go. yeah, the thirdly: all this extreme left, extreme right, identity politics and so on, is a bit of a nonsense. No big deal, but in my world, if we're going to have a society at all, I think the best way to organise it is on the basis of co-operation rather than 'competition' (where of course what you actually get is monopolies and cartels cosying up to one another – the perfect market on which all classicalo economic theories are based is a fantasy and has never existed) creating winners and losers. And money is not wealth: it's a means of exchange, a measure of value (and/or wealth), and a store of wealth (not that this is particularly relevant here, I just thought I would chuck it in). And fourthly, to say socialism has 'failed' because some populist despots have claimed they were acting in its name, is nonsense. If we just look at the narrow example of the UK since the pitifully economically ignorant Thatch decided to roll back the achievements of the 1945-50 government, how much better off is anyone with the railways and public utilities in private hands, accountable only to their shareholders?
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 12, 2019 20:10:23 GMT
CORBYN's Blackpool speech today was good, I thought. I mean it's all empty blah and such but I admire the low-key way he delivered it, and the gravitas he undoubtedly has now. And I am FAR from being a fan.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 12, 2019 21:48:52 GMT
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 13, 2019 0:59:50 GMT
oooh
ooh
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