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god
disambiguating goat herder
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 25, 2020 20:02:58 GMT
Recently got a Newfoundland pup, been investigating what the lastest and best approaches to training might be. I wasn't a big fan of the "dogs as wolves, must be the alpha approach", which had taken hold. I see now it has been called into question, and there doesn't seem to be any specific approach other than be nice and be adaptive, kinda what one has to do with kids. There has been an explosion of dog adoptions during COVID, I fear there may be also an explosion of returns. Many are looking for a silver bullet approach to dealing with their dogs and fitting them into their lives, rather than being adaptive with the dog. The latest science which has been emerging since 2002 has been that dogs are not a mono-species, and man's fingerprints are all over their histories and genetics. Thus, one needs to spend time to get to know their dog, observing one's companion may be the single biggest rule, rather than a list of rules of obedience that most want. This Open Access study highlights the changes in training approaches: link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13620-019-0139-3The approach to problem behaviours in dogs has changed in recent years; previously a mis-understanding of the biological theory of dominance has been used to explain certain behavioural problems in dogs which has led to the use of punishment-based treatment methods. Current research advocates the benefits of reward-based methods and highlights the risks of implementing positive punishment-based training techniques to both dogs and owners.
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Post by hippopotamus on Aug 25, 2020 20:07:16 GMT
This is pretty interesting. My husband is so keen on training our daughter like a dog. Like you say, they aren't TOO different. Behavioural psychology taught us a lot. Is a Newfoundland smart? Our 4 month old taught herself to sit this week and it's been fascinating me how so many things are just programmed and if you want to train you have to use what they've already got and build on that.
Good luck with the dog training. Hope the puppy isn't breaking You in.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 25, 2020 20:17:02 GMT
Even though we had a small dog that we got six or seven years ago, he was hard to walk, would nip at my daughter and sit on the couches. We hired a personal dog trainer who showed us some things to do in two or three easy lessons. The dog has been fine ever since.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 25, 2020 20:18:59 GMT
This is pretty interesting. My husband is so keen on training our daughter like a dog. This cracked me up, for some reason. I guess there are some similarities, but . . . That's a very guy response too - dog, kid - what's the difference?
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 25, 2020 20:22:57 GMT
We found that the dog wanted to know you're in charge, in lots of regards.
Our dog wanted to sit on top of the couch and we were told he was trying to assert himself and take him down every chance. It worked. Also with walking, we had to constantly hold him back to walk equal with us, not try and lead us. That took a bit longer, but it worked.
He was a shelter dog too and got him when he was fairly young - two or three years old. I think he was older though, by the way he's aged. He's got more gray hair than me.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 25, 2020 20:36:34 GMT
It's funny I had less worries with raising kids than with training dogs. With my kids I always trusted a certain natural imperative that they would do what they needed to do in time and my job was to keep them safe, redirect if needed and see further ahead as to where they might be going (otherwise, stay out of their way) There is is a lot of joy in watching their unfolding journey. This worked with eating, potty training, speaking, walking, playing, etc., I guess I don't trust that same natural imperative with a pet, because the wreckage is so vast ( as it is with kids, too unfortunately). I guess I trust my control of my kids' variables greater than I might that with my Newfoundland, Bitty. That probably has something to do with how I've been conditioned (ironically), also this is the first puppy I have had since childhood. all my previous dogs were ones I took in from others passing, getting married, not fitting in, etc., so I had no control over how they were raised. This time I do. and Yes, Newfies are smart, with an impressive record of heroism.
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Post by hippopotamus on Aug 25, 2020 20:37:58 GMT
This is pretty interesting. My husband is so keen on training our daughter like a dog. This cracked me up, for some reason. I guess there are some similarities, but . . . That's a very guy response too - dog, kid - what's the difference? It is a very guy response. Still, this is also very much "my bag" as they say. With two advances degrees in psychology and my job working with children it is fun to explore how our behaviours affect theirs. I've never trained a dog OR a child... But they are pretty similar aren't they?
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Post by hippopotamus on Aug 25, 2020 20:55:54 GMT
It's funny I had less worries with raising kids than with training dogs. With my kids I always trusted a certain natural imperative that they would do what they needed to do in time and my job was to keep them safe, redirect if needed and see further ahead as to where they might be going (otherwise, stay out of their way) There is is a lot of joy in watching their unfolding journey. This worked with eating, potty training, speaking, walking, playing, etc., I guess I don't trust that same natural imperative with a pet, because the wreckage is so vast ( as it is with kids, too unfortunately). I guess I trust my control of my kids' variables greater than I might that with my Newfoundland, Bitty. That probably has something to do with how I've been conditioned (ironically), also this is the first puppy I have had since childhood. all my previous dogs were ones I took in from others passing, getting married, not fitting in, etc., so I had no control over how they were raised. This time I do. and Yes, Newfies are smart, with an impressive record of heroism. Is it actually a fact that they don't come from Newfoundland at all? They actually come from Labrador but the name was taken? I'm really excited for you and a bit jealous. My brother got a new dog (greyhound) a month ago and my sister got a new puppy yesterday! (Both not covid related). I know I only just got a baby, but I still wish I could get a dog. So far (4 Months into parenthood) kids do seem fairly organic. But there are things like "sleep training" and "elimination communication" (where you condition babies from newborns to go to the toilet on command) being touted as the best way to get them to fit into your busy life.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 25, 2020 21:48:39 GMT
It's funny I had less worries with raising kids than with training dogs. With my kids I always trusted a certain natural imperative that they would do what they needed to do in time and my job was to keep them safe, redirect if needed and see further ahead as to where they might be going (otherwise, stay out of their way) There is is a lot of joy in watching their unfolding journey. This worked with eating, potty training, speaking, walking, playing, etc., I guess I don't trust that same natural imperative with a pet, because the wreckage is so vast ( as it is with kids, too unfortunately). I guess I trust my control of my kids' variables greater than I might that with my Newfoundland, Bitty. That probably has something to do with how I've been conditioned (ironically), also this is the first puppy I have had since childhood. all my previous dogs were ones I took in from others passing, getting married, not fitting in, etc., so I had no control over how they were raised. This time I do. and Yes, Newfies are smart, with an impressive record of heroism. Is it actually a fact that they don't come from Newfoundland at all? They actually come from Labrador but the name was taken? I'm really excited for you and a bit jealous. My brother got a new dog (greyhound) a month ago and my sister got a new puppy yesterday! (Both not covid related). I know I only just got a baby, but I still wish I could get a dog. So far (4 Months into parenthood) kids do seem fairly organic. But there are things like "sleep training" and "elimination communication" (where you condition babies from newborns to go to the toilet on command) being touted as the best way to get them to fit into your busy life. I think their origin story is layered with connections to the original dogs brought by the Vikings, then Irish and English fishermen brought dogs, then the Portuguese waterdog was interbred which developed the St. John's Dog, which is the "Ur" dog for the breed. But ironically the AKC reports that all Newfies nowadays are descended from Newfies exported to the UK, and then imported back to North America (so something happened at some point to the breed). Wow, "elimination communication" how is the conditioning done? Sleep training I assume is having them sleep on their own through the night. I remember the big battles when having the child sleep in the same bed as the parents began making a comeback.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 25, 2020 22:27:54 GMT
An interesting subset of dog training is a sports medicine approach for working dogs, rescue dogs, sled dogs, etc., For instance, here is an hot off the presses research piece on supplementing sled dogs with the amino acid Tryptophan to make them fight less and be less aggressive overall but not impede their work performance. Thus if you have an aggressive dog, along with feeding them less protein, more fiber, Tryptophan may have benefits: Overall, this research is the first to show the positive impact of an increased Trp:LNAA ratio on agonistic behaviour, which ultimately improves the workability of sled dogs and potentially decreases their risk of pain and injury. These results can be used to inform the development of diets and training programs designed to maximize the performance and success of sled dogs.journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0232643
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 26, 2020 0:56:51 GMT
This cracked me up, for some reason. I guess there are some similarities, but . . . That's a very guy response too - dog, kid - what's the difference? It is a very guy response. Still, this is also very much "my bag" as they say. With two advances degrees in psychology and my job working with children it is fun to explore how our behaviours affect theirs. I've never trained a dog OR a child... But they are pretty similar aren't they? In my experience with both, no.
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Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Aug 26, 2020 13:40:23 GMT
We had a Great Pyrenees until a few years ago, and she was as lovely as could be. Stubborn as hell, though, which is something I wish we had worked harder at when she was a pup. The only advice I'm going to give you is to buy the best vacuum cleaner you can afford.
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Post by bungo the mungo on Aug 26, 2020 14:03:56 GMT
looking forward to some more absolutely fascinating info on the subject from gav. hopefully, he'll be dropping by later.
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Post by hippopotamus on Aug 29, 2020 19:50:38 GMT
Is it actually a fact that they don't come from Newfoundland at all? They actually come from Labrador but the name was taken? I'm really excited for you and a bit jealous. My brother got a new dog (greyhound) a month ago and my sister got a new puppy yesterday! (Both not covid related). I know I only just got a baby, but I still wish I could get a dog. So far (4 Months into parenthood) kids do seem fairly organic. But there are things like "sleep training" and "elimination communication" (where you condition babies from newborns to go to the toilet on command) being touted as the best way to get them to fit into your busy life. I think their origin story is layered with connections to the original dogs brought by the Vikings, then Irish and English fishermen brought dogs, then the Portuguese waterdog was interbred which developed the St. John's Dog, which is the "Ur" dog for the breed. But ironically the AKC reports that all Newfies nowadays are descended from Newfies exported to the UK, and then imported back to North America (so something happened at some point to the breed). Wow, "elimination communication" how is the conditioning done? Sleep training I assume is having them sleep on their own through the night. I remember the big battles when having the child sleep in the same bed as the parents began making a comeback. Elimination communication (or EC method, if you will) you basically can train an infant from about 4 Months old to use a potty by pairing a reflex (like the gastro-colic reflex) with a noise... So be ready with the potty when they would go normally and then make a noise... Then eventually being there with the potty and making the noise will make them go. (Basically EXACTLY the same as Pavlov's dog... But with different body fluids). Sleep training as you say is getting the baby to sleep independently. They now don't advise the cry-it-out, or Ferber method, but there are variations called "extinction" (which in psychology is the opposite of conditioning), where you unpair an association, in this case crying til you are picked up, so that the baby doesn't need picking up to go to sleep. Instead you manipulate other sleep associations (such as darkened room, a bedtime routine) so cue the baby to sleep on its own. Incidentally these are the same suggestions we give adults with insomnia. Sometimes it drives me mad when my husband calls our daughter "a good little robot", because it undermines how clever the human brain can be (professionally he specialises in machine learning, and I'm a neuroscientist)... But humans definitely can be trained (not unlike a machine... Or dog)
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Post by bungo the mungo on Aug 31, 2020 14:09:33 GMT
Sometimes it drives me mad when my husband calls our daughter "a good little robot", because it undermines how clever the human brain can be (professionally he specialises in machine learning, and I'm a neuroscientist)... But humans definitely can be trained (not unlike a machine... Or dog) blimey. modern day parenting.
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