|
Post by cousinlou on Jun 27, 2021 21:13:22 GMT
It's only since the advent o f Serious Rock Criticism (Paul Morley et al) that we've had to wade through all this bullshit where terms like 'dystopian', 'nihilistic' and 'post-modern' are used to pump up bands who just wanted to sing songs and fuck women. Whoa! that all started in the mid-60s with music writers (not rock writers) taking the Beatles seriously, putting them in the contect of classical music theory, and, unintended consequences and so on, ultimately promoting the growth of prog. They were writing in the broadsheets, admittedly, but even in the inkies (and indeed in Rolling Stone, sorry to mention it) writers were hitting that serious tone and writing long think-pieces long before Morley/Penman got in on the act in the early 1980s.
And back to Bowie, He did have something to say, but it was basically, hey, look at this thing I heard/read/saw, isn't it great? - borrowed ideas and tropes, not just from camp and mime, but sci-fi, bands, newspapers and so on.
I did not read all of this thread but am just wondering why Bowie is measured differently than others? What did Beethoven have to say? Satie? What did van Gogh have to say or Picasso? What did Spector have to say? Personally I think his body of work speaks pretty strongly for it self. He maynot have been the greatest musician or lyricist - and there’s no doubt he was not aware of that- but he was a great conceptionalist. And a bloody good singer, lest we forget.
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,797
|
Post by rayge on Jun 27, 2021 21:29:25 GMT
Whoa! that all started in the mid-60s with music writers (not rock writers) taking the Beatles seriously, putting them in the contect of classical music theory, and, unintended consequences and so on, ultimately promoting the growth of prog. They were writing in the broadsheets, admittedly, but even in the inkies (and indeed in Rolling Stone, sorry to mention it) writers were hitting that serious tone and writing long think-pieces long before Morley/Penman got in on the act in the early 1980s.
And back to Bowie, He did have something to say, but it was basically, hey, look at this thing I heard/read/saw, isn't it great? - borrowed ideas and tropes, not just from camp and mime, but sci-fi, bands, newspapers and so on.
I did not read all of this thread. That's obvious
|
|
|
Post by cousinlou on Jun 28, 2021 8:34:23 GMT
I did not read all of this thread. That's obvious No I did read that but I was thinking you were trying to distinguish between having something to SAY and something to say. ' he basically he wrote about what he heard/read/saw'. That may be true but that sets him apart from only 0.01% of popwriters.
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,797
|
Post by rayge on Jun 28, 2021 9:14:22 GMT
That's obvious No I did read that but I was thinking you were trying to distinguish between having something to SAY and something to say. ' he basically he wrote about what he heard/read/saw'. That may be true but that sets him apart from only 0.01% of popwriters. That's the point I was making when I first replied to the thread two years ago; the quote that John pulled out and asked to talk about was in response to the idea that he was some kind of visionary artist who changed the world, rather than a popwriter/performer who produced work of variable quality, occasoinally tapping into the zeitgeist to great effect, occasionally falling flat on his face.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 9:31:19 GMT
Does it have to be an either/or? Couldn't he have been a visionary artist who sometimes fell on his face? And if Bowie's doesn't qualify as a visionary artist, who does exactly?
|
|
|
Post by oh oooh on Jun 28, 2021 9:36:23 GMT
We haven't talked about all the image changes, which fans might compare to Picasso, and detractors might think it's a sign of his cluelessness, a lack of consistency.
A lot of it looks a bit daft to me at this remove. The Thin White Duke, etc. Fuck off!
|
|
|
Post by Reactionary Rage on Jun 28, 2021 9:38:13 GMT
What was visionary about him? Did he change the world?
Was he just a pop songwriter and performer? or something more?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 9:48:07 GMT
I think if you use hyperbolic terms like "change the world", just about every artist is going to fall short. Possibly you could put forward an argument for The Beatles and Elvis, but that's about it. I would certainly say he was a pivotal artist who was very influential on the pop culture of the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 9:50:56 GMT
What was visionary about him? Did he change the world? Was he just a pop songwriter and performer? or something more? Something more, at least if you're a fan. It's about more than simply a collection of songs, it's about finding his artistic journey fascinating and inspirational.
|
|
|
Post by Reactionary Rage on Jun 28, 2021 10:40:14 GMT
Yeah, it's like a hero's arc. The ultimate artistic journey. Someone self-actualising and making their dreams come true in a way that so few people ever do. There is something heroic and inspirational about that for sure and I think it's this element that people gravitate towards. Even in his adoption of persona's it's almost like a liberation from the constraints we all feel. I'm gonna play at being a bisexual rock star! I'm a white kid from Brixton but I'm gonna make a bloody soul album! Ok David! You do it son!
The impression I get of Bowie when he was young was that he wanted to be two things: 1. famous and 2. an artist of some kind. I suspect the former was his primary goal and why the hell not eh? He played around...with mime (Oh David), the saxophone (he was into Jazz) and painting too but like a lot of people back then they realised that pop/rock was where it was at and would afford him the greatest opportunity to create but also to be famous and wealthy. In the early days he stumbled around and had some failures, like all hero's in mythology do but he had some success too (Space Oddity) that pointed to the future and what was to come. With Hunky Dory and Ziggy it's Bowie imaging being successful when he really wasn't...the dreams of a million and one teenagers and frustrated "artists". Hunky Dory's sleeve has some old school Hollywood Marlene Dietrich glamour about it...Ziggy might not have been the first moment of rock referencing itself in some kind of meta, (yawn) post modern way but it was certainly the most influential. In this way he was definitely onto something wider in popular culture that, for better or worse, is still being played out today. After this he assumed different persona's, synthesized trends and musical shifts happening underneath the surface and alchemised them into some of the greatest music of that decade. A repeated reinvention of the musical self. In this approach there is something profound and psychological that taps into something greater and more powerful though imo...the notion that not only do we invent ourselves to some degree but that we are iterations of ourselves that changed and develop over time and we have the power to reinvent ourselves in radical and profound ways. In the same way that I am not person I was when I was 18/25/30 Bowie's musical development is like an artistic expression of the ch-ch-ch-changes a person can go through. In this way I have always felt a kinship with Bowie because I think he grasped something quite profound and meaningful.
|
|
Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,557
Member is Online
|
Post by Sneelock on Jul 1, 2021 0:40:08 GMT
the name is familiar. red headed chap? drug problem? tennis elbow?
|
|
|
Post by oh oooh on Oct 6, 2021 20:18:33 GMT
New single!
|
|
|
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Oct 6, 2021 20:30:27 GMT
I was wondering what he'd been up to.
|
|
Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,557
Member is Online
|
Post by Sneelock on Oct 29, 2021 17:13:30 GMT
|
|
~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
|
Post by ~ / % ? * on Oct 29, 2021 17:14:39 GMT
still dead
|
|