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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 14, 2021 9:40:52 GMT
Laboratory created meat? No doubt that shit will end up being mass produced in some dirty lab in CHINA and will probably end up killing us all.
What a world.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 10:12:26 GMT
15 quid for a fucking chicken?! What would you say is a reasonable price for a chicken? A chicken that lives 40 days in the regular industry, 60 days free range and 80 days in organic? The natural life span of a chicken, btw, is 10 years.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 14, 2021 10:35:41 GMT
A few quid. I wouldn't pay more than 5/6 for a decent large chicken myself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 10:45:07 GMT
Hey man , don't quote the headline if the story is different you know? My point as far as I am concerned still stands. To be fair you thought it had relevance that's why it is there. The argument that we are conditioned to eat meat as some sort of matrix driven mass hysteria is just one more ism the world doesn't need. As I said I am all for an alternative I wish that it was presented as a capitalist friendly option because that drives everything. As someone who spent seven years in the industry I am well aware of the emotional effects. I did not quote the headline at all, that was a quote from Kaplan. It is relevant as Nazism ( and many other agressive isms) relied on the same mechanisms as carnism. I must admit at first I was not happy with the comparison either but as I progressed through the book, I started to think well, it does make sense. One of the things she also argues is these systems can only exist if one particular specie believes they are on top of the foodchain and the other species are therefor inferior objects. That in itself is a product of culture. I am interested in your last sentence about the emotional effects. Which ones are that? The term nazi is used in various ways isn't it. To compare the animals in the food chain to the idealogical beliefs and practise of nazism is ridiculous and counterproductive. I guess if cows and sheep are unnecessary then the slowing down of breeding will lead to an almost elimination of a species because it doesn't serve the Kaplan new world order. Nazism indeed. Often (not always) the belief in vegans and to some extent vegetarians is totally a personal emotional response. It upsets them so much that it must be a belief shared by all.It simply isn't. We are at the top of the food chain the ultimate lords of the planet as far as living creatures are concerned. It's part of culture, it's about superiority, come on. Bad matrix believe meat tastes good , proper matrix we all believe meat is bad. It doesn't really do much to argue that ten thousand years of behaviour will change because of guilt. There is a book to be written about food production that helps the planet and feeds the hungry but emotive reasoning and labelling and pet theories won't do. When you live and work on a farm with animals the shock to the suburban dweller is the sheer cruelty of nature. It really is all about life and death. The joy of a birth and the sadness of stillborns. and breach births that require human interaction . I have sat with cows as they are dying from various things and held the drip bag with calcium willing them to get to their feet The work and time in looking after livestock is immense. The rewards financially tell me that farmers are not infected by a culture driven superiority over their charges, far from it. Toby's "special" less cruel meat is expensive because they need to cover their cost and, of course the animals finite life is better because a former broker living the good life has marketed the same life cycle of the animal as something nicer and he recovers his costs with an ethical advertising campaign. The change isn't going to come from activist emotional driven dogma. Johnny got it right , you need a meat free McDonalds concept that Joe public will buy from. I hope someone manages to do it. I really do.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 11:28:08 GMT
I did not quote the headline at all, that was a quote from Kaplan. It is relevant as Nazism ( and many other agressive isms) relied on the same mechanisms as carnism. I must admit at first I was not happy with the comparison either but as I progressed through the book, I started to think well, it does make sense. One of the things she also argues is these systems can only exist if one particular specie believes they are on top of the foodchain and the other species are therefor inferior objects. That in itself is a product of culture. I am interested in your last sentence about the emotional effects. Which ones are that? The term nazi is used in various ways isn't it . To compare the animals in the food chain to the idealogical beliefs and practise of nazism is ridiculous and counterproductive. I guess if cows and sheep are unnecessary then the slowing down of breeding will lead to an almost elimination of a species because it doesn't serve the Kaplan new world order. Nazism indeed. Often (not always) the belief in vegans and to some extent vegetarians is totally a personal emotional response. It upsets them so much that it must be a belief shared by all.It simply isn't. We are at the top of the food chain the ultimate lords of the planet as far as living creatures are concerned. It's part of culture, it's about superiority, come on. Bad matrix believe meat tastes good , proper matrix we all believe meat is bad. It doesn't really do much to argue that ten thousand years of behaviour will change because of guilt. There is a book to be written about food production that helps the planet and feeds the hungry but emotive reasoning and labelling and pet theories won't do. When you live and work on a farm with animals the shock to the suburban dweller is the sheer cruelty of nature. It really is all about life and death. The joy of a birth and the sadness of stillborns. and breach births that require human interaction . I have sat with cows as they are dying from various things and held the drip bag with calcium willing them to get to their feet The work and time in looking after livestock is immense. The rewards financially tell me that farmers are not infected by a culture driven superiority over their charges, far from it. Toby's "special" less cruel meat is expensive because they need to cover their cost and, of course the animals finite life is better because a former broker living the good life has marketed the same life cycle of the animal as something nicer and he recovers his costs with an ethical advertising campaign. The change isn't going to come from activist emotional driven dogma. Johnny got it right , you need a meat free McDonalds concept that Joe public will buy from. I hope someone manages to do it. I really do. On the first bolded bit: It is exactly the same. One specie thinks the other is inferior and objectivives it and goes on to treat it whatever way he sees fit. It's the reason for for instance feminism, BLM, and trade unions that are all born out of a believe the other side doesn't treat them well enough and certainly not equal. As animals are incapable to do it, it's upto people like Joy ( and many others) to advocate their cause. What is exactly different from Nazi's vs Jews and Carnists vs Animals? I think John's right too. Although in this thread Toby has already made a statement he will not remove meat from his diet. I am sure there are many that feel entitled to have their meat. The price is certainly a point but there must be limits to what one will accept for a lower price? About the latter and the impact of culture: How many cost-conscious people you think are willing to eat Labrador steak even when it's sold at 50p/kg?
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Post by fearlessfreap on Oct 14, 2021 11:42:41 GMT
Oh, wait, carnism, not carnyism -- I should read more carefully. As far as fake meat goes, they'll have to do better than the impossible to eat burger which tastes like homemade shit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 12:31:20 GMT
The term nazi is used in various ways isn't it . To compare the animals in the food chain to the idealogical beliefs and practise of nazism is ridiculous and counterproductive. I guess if cows and sheep are unnecessary then the slowing down of breeding will lead to an almost elimination of a species because it doesn't serve the Kaplan new world order. Nazism indeed. Often (not always) the belief in vegans and to some extent vegetarians is totally a personal emotional response. It upsets them so much that it must be a belief shared by all.It simply isn't. We are at the top of the food chain the ultimate lords of the planet as far as living creatures are concerned. It's part of culture, it's about superiority, come on. Bad matrix believe meat tastes good , proper matrix we all believe meat is bad. It doesn't really do much to argue that ten thousand years of behaviour will change because of guilt. There is a book to be written about food production that helps the planet and feeds the hungry but emotive reasoning and labelling and pet theories won't do. When you live and work on a farm with animals the shock to the suburban dweller is the sheer cruelty of nature. It really is all about life and death. The joy of a birth and the sadness of stillborns. and breach births that require human interaction . I have sat with cows as they are dying from various things and held the drip bag with calcium willing them to get to their feet The work and time in looking after livestock is immense. The rewards financially tell me that farmers are not infected by a culture driven superiority over their charges, far from it. Toby's "special" less cruel meat is expensive because they need to cover their cost and, of course the animals finite life is better because a former broker living the good life has marketed the same life cycle of the animal as something nicer and he recovers his costs with an ethical advertising campaign. The change isn't going to come from activist emotional driven dogma. Johnny got it right , you need a meat free McDonalds concept that Joe public will buy from. I hope someone manages to do it. I really do. On the first bolded bit: It is exactly the same. One specie thinks the other is inferior and objectivives it and goes on to treat it whatever way he sees fit. It's the reason for for instance feminism, BLM, and trade unions that are all born out of a believe the other side doesn't treat them well enough and certainly not equal. As animals are incapable to do it, it's upto people like Joy ( and many others) to advocate their cause. What is exactly different from Nazi's vs Jews and Carnists vs Animals? I think John's right too. Although in this thread Toby has already made a statement he will not remove meat from his diet. I am sure there are many that feel entitled to have their meat. The price is certainly a point but there must be limits to what one will accept for a lower price? About the latter and the impact of culture: How many cost-conscious people you think are willing to eat Labrador steak even when it's sold at 50p/kg? The argument that you put forward above is there to be dismantled to be honest. It is exactly what I stated at the beginning. Your emotions are in control and you are reacting accordingly. People will, if they are financially poor literally buy any old shit if they like the taste of it. It really is obvious I think. The animals don't need people advocating their cause which as a natural prey animal is to feed whatever predates. This argument is actually about human beings and their welfare and health and environment. So standing up for a cow is ok but what is the human to eat while ermentrude goes a roamin in the gloamin. We need to feed people and animal husbandry is affecting the planet in many ways. Your average vegan would do better to offer some meat free food to people in your average shopping precinct instead of showing a slaughter house on macbooks while wearing a white mask. This change will not come because people see animals as equals or inferior ( such a non argument) . It will change when the food is on the shelves and the basis for change is that it tastes good and is affordable. It really is that, um, simple.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 13:02:32 GMT
On the first bolded bit: It is exactly the same. One specie thinks the other is inferior and objectivives it and goes on to treat it whatever way he sees fit. It's the reason for for instance feminism, BLM, and trade unions that are all born out of a believe the other side doesn't treat them well enough and certainly not equal. As animals are incapable to do it, it's upto people like Joy ( and many others) to advocate their cause. What is exactly different from Nazi's vs Jews and Carnists vs Animals? I think John's right too. Although in this thread Toby has already made a statement he will not remove meat from his diet. I am sure there are many that feel entitled to have their meat. The price is certainly a point but there must be limits to what one will accept for a lower price? About the latter and the impact of culture: How many cost-conscious people you think are willing to eat Labrador steak even when it's sold at 50p/kg? The argument that you put forward above is there to be dismantled to be honest. It is exactly what I stated at the beginning. Your emotions are in control and you are reacting accordingly. People will, if they are financially poor literally buy any old shit if they like the taste of it. It really is obvious I think. The animals don't need people advocating their cause which as a natural prey animal is to feed whatever predates.This argument is actually about human beings and their welfare and health and environment. So standing up for a cow is ok but what is the human to eat while ermentrude goes a roamin in the gloamin. We need to feed people and animal husbandry is affecting the planet in many ways. Your average vegan would do better to offer some meat free food to people in your average shopping precinct instead of showing a slaughter house on macbooks while wearing a white mask. This change will not come because people see animals as equals or inferior ( such a non argument) . It will change when the food is on the shelves and the basis for change is that it tastes good and is affordable. It really is that, um, simple. That's normal, natural, and necessary. Or at least, that's what our culture have us think. But who can honestly say that it is natural to terminate animal's lives, basically a short time after they were born? It maybe normal in the strictest sense that everyone is complicit but it is certainly not necessary. But you seem to be argueing that 'they' have to fill the shelves with alternatives. There are at least two examples on this board who I don't think are extremely money rich but seem to get by ok without big retail having to reach out to them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 13:42:28 GMT
Animals lives are terminated early in nature . That therefore is their natural disposition. We farm rather than hunt. If we hunted animals and prepared them ourselves the whole animal rights movement would have to take a different stance I would think. I don't know what age any given animal has to live for before it can be killed , what's the difference. Eggs,roe,lambs that sort of thing? Of course they have to fill the shelves with something else that is how you change the status quo. How else do you plan to do it? Good tasty food that is plentiful and affordable. Substitute pork pies and Burgers and nuggets for something else and the culture , we will call it that will see less meat. All I am saying is it is all about feeding the planet. Treating livestock as an equal is one thing but how you replace it is the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 14:44:51 GMT
A few quid. I wouldn't pay more than 5/6 for a decent large chicken myself. And you can get a medium free range one for that. Morrisons do an excellent cook in the bag one for that. The idea you have to pay fifteen quid is silly.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Oct 14, 2021 15:18:20 GMT
Fast Food Nation is also a good book to read re: the slaughter and consumption of animals for the fast food industry.
I still eat meat because I'm pretty conditioned to eat it. I like the taste because I've grown up on it.
But, I eat much less than I use to and with the meat alternatives coming out these days, I can see myself going totally vegetarian in the near future - the next year or so.
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Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Oct 14, 2021 15:34:19 GMT
Morrisons do an excellent cook in the bag one for that. NOOOOOOOOOO! Not Rusty!!
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Post by oh oooh on Oct 14, 2021 22:38:54 GMT
Does anyone remember boil-in-the-bag fish in sauce?
An absolute mainstay when I was a stude
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