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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 7:16:03 GMT
I am finishing a book by Melanie Joy, 'Why we love Dogs, eat Pigs, and wear Cows'.
The book is ten years old but just got a re-release, I guess because next to animal wellfare, the environmental issues around life stock have caught on in everyone's awareness. She has coined the name 'carnism' by which she means the matrix we all live in that allows us to eat animal products and keep the industry going.
She's making a compelling case, comparing carnism with other agressive systems and the swaths of 'willing executioners' it takes to make it work.
Eating animal products: 'It's normal', 'it's natural', ' It's necessary'. No doubt everyone's heard those three in advertising or from other people.
A quote from Helmut Kaplan: "Everything the Nazis did to Jews we are today practicing on animals. Our grandchildren will ask us one day: Where were you during the Holocaust of the animals? What did you do against these horrifying crimes? We won't be able to offer the same excuse for the second time, that we didn't know."
A quote from Macca: "If the walls of slaughter houses were made of glass, no one would eat meat anymore"
Any thoughts? Do we not have a free will but are we rather being matrixed through life?
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Post by tory on Oct 14, 2021 7:36:21 GMT
I don't think there's any doubt that the industrialised aspects of meat processing are horrific. All school children should, in my opinion, go to see an Abattoir and see what happens. We live in a time now where the journey from farm to fork is literally shrouded and very few people are actually aware of the reality of what happens to animals.
Consider that with the pre-war period before 1945 when most people probably ate meat twice a week at most, and would also eat things like tripe, dripping, offal et al, at least here in the UK.
I am, however, not going to remove meat from my diet. I refuse to eat pre-prepared sandwiches with meat, I don't eat meat in any school meal at the canteen because I have little idea where it comes from and in all cases when I do eat it, I want to know precisely where it has come from. That means no Greggs sausage rolls etc etc. The reality of farming in this country is that below the giant agribusinesses, there are many farmers who rely on meat to make an income. Many of these farmers treat their animals well and they go to the slaughterhouse after a good life.
There is a growing industry in this country of meat that is sourced appropriately where the welfare of the animal is of upmost concern. The cost of this is passed naturally onto the consumer, so for example a good cut of beef is £30, or a Chicken is £15. This is an appropriate cost for such a product in my eyes. Meat should be expensive and a treat. If you are buying a cut of beef for under £10, or a Chicken for £5 you are, in my sincere opinion, buying a dead animal that has not had much of a life.
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Carnism
Oct 14, 2021 7:43:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Oct 14, 2021 7:43:58 GMT
'I looked after my pigs well before I slaughtered them all!'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 8:17:14 GMT
We were and always have been willing executioners in the eating of animals. To compare it to Nazis killing Jews is frankly absurd. I think the whole idea of a more if not total change to animal products is fine by me. I wish people like Joy would put more effort into explaining how that can be done rather than just using emotive personal reasoning to make a case. I eat less meat than I ever have now because I am surrounded by fresh food that is a world away from UK supermarket shelves. What the carnists really need to do is give us viable alternatives . McDonalds made the burger a go too product that has people bemoaning their town if they don't have one. Someone has to actually make the same kind of breakthrough with a more realistic scenario than meat is murder. Most of the vegan arguments for all year round sustainability such as using the land put aside for livestock food changing to edible crops is probably at this moment a valid idea.The projected figures suggest that this would create more than enough food for everybody. Melanie Joy may think that an animal diet population being shamed is a good enough reason to change but that isn't going to work. Everything works better if you market the product correctly and sell it as something good that people like and is easily available. The no meat message needs to sell its products as well as it's idea. Carnists, matrix and Nazis, oh dear.
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Post by osgood on Oct 14, 2021 8:39:46 GMT
We are not that far from laboratory created meat at affordable prices. Does it feel like a way to go?
Me, I definitely would. Or will.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 8:45:52 GMT
This is pretty much a load of rubbish Toby. A Deli driven fantasy without any real truth to it. Storage costs and ageing of expensive cuts add to the cost for starters. With steak being about ten percent of the animal it's simply supply and demand and the fact that the "best" meat is only in 10% of the carcass. You are not getting a better cut from a better animal the cost is higher because their is less of it. I worked on a dairy farm for seven years. Asda took our milk and beef. The condition and welfare of the animals was laid out by the buyers , we were regularly checked to see that the animals were treated, housed and fed in accordance with their welfare standards. As I said in my other post how you get in the mind of the consumer about what is good to eat is way more important to the selling of the food. Paying more for your beef may make you feel all warm and cosy inside but it isn't improving the animals welfare. Skope will have a better idea than me on the realistic scenario of a meat free planet. I am sorry but at the end of the day Mr consumer cares about cost and how something tastes more than how it gets to their plate.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 8:51:20 GMT
I don't think there's any doubt that the industrialised aspects of meat processing are horrific. All school children should, in my opinion, go to see an Abattoir and see what happens. We live in a time now where the journey from farm to fork is literally shrouded and very few people are actually aware of the reality of what happens to animals. Consider that with the pre-war period before 1945 when most people probably ate meat twice a week at most, and would also eat things like tripe, dripping, offal et al, at least here in the UK. I am, however, not going to remove meat from my diet. I refuse to eat pre-prepared sandwiches with meat, I don't eat meat in any school meal at the canteen because I have little idea where it comes from and in all cases when I do eat it, I want to know precisely where it has come from. That means no Greggs sausage rolls etc etc. The reality of farming in this country is that below the giant agribusinesses, there are many farmers who rely on meat to make an income. Many of these farmers treat their animals well and they go to the slaughterhouse after a good life.
There is a growing industry in this country of meat that is sourced appropriately where the welfare of the animal is of upmost concern. The cost of this is passed naturally onto the consumer, so for example a good cut of beef is £30, or a Chicken is £15. This is an appropriate cost for such a product in my eyes. Meat should be expensive and a treat. If you are buying a cut of beef for under £10, or a Chicken for £5 you are, in my sincere opinion, buying a dead animal that has not had much of a life. Of course there will always be famers that treat their animals better than others. Also within, say, the category of organic life stock farmers. Besides organic, there are some other farmers to that have a higher focus on animal wellfare. Regardless, they are being sent to the slaughterhouse, long before their due time. Look at veal for instance. That is a by-product of the dairy industry. Bulls are slaughtered at 6-7 months old for the production of veal. There is, after all, no use for them otherwise - they don't produce milk. A dairy cow is slaughtered at 5 - 6 years old when their milk productivity is declining. This after a life of being ongoingly inseminated after each lactation period to keep the milk flow going.The natural life span of a cow 'in the wild' is about 10 years. If you look at the UK, organic beef production is 1.2% of the total amount produced. The cost aspect - to me - is not something that interests me a whole lot in the frame work of this.
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Carnism
Oct 14, 2021 9:02:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Oct 14, 2021 9:02:05 GMT
Anyway, we're moving slowly away from meat consumption in this country but I don't know if we'll ever see the majority eat vegan/veggie. Not in my lifetime at least.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 9:04:27 GMT
We were and always have been willing executioners in the eating of animals. To compare it to Nazis killing Jews is frankly absurd.I think the whole idea of a more if not total change to animal products is fine by me. I wish people like Joy would put more effort into explaining how that can be done rather than just using emotive personal reasoning to make a case. I eat less meat than I ever have now because I am surrounded by fresh food that is a world away from UK supermarket shelves. What the carnists really need to do is give us viable alternatives . McDonalds made the burger a go too product that has people bemoaning their town if they don't have one. Someone has to actually make the same kind of breakthrough with a more realistic scenario than meat is murder. Most of the vegan arguments for all year round sustainability such as using the land put aside for livestock food changing to edible crops is probably at this moment a valid idea.The projected figures suggest that this would create more than enough food for everybody. Melanie Joy may think that an animal diet population being shamed is a good enough reason to change but that isn't going to work. Everything works better if you market the product correctly and sell it as something good that people like and is easily available. The no meat message needs to sell its products as well as it's idea. Carnists, matrix and Nazis, oh dear. She is not doing that but only comparing the system that keeps it afloat. The matrix so to say. She goes at great length to explain it in her book. I suggest you read that instead of shooting off a few points I lifted from the book. She's trying to raise awareness rather than selling veg burgers. www.amazon.nl/Love-Dogs-Pigs-Wear-Cows/dp/1590035011/ref=asc_df_1590035011/?tag=nlshogostdde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=482016698065&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=66960447772260299&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1010397&hvtargid=pla-919267758841&psc=1
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Carnism
Oct 14, 2021 9:17:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 9:17:11 GMT
Hey man , don't quote the headline if the story is different you know? My point as far as I am concerned still stands. To be fair you thought it had relevance that's why it is there. The argument that we are conditioned to eat meat as some sort of matrix driven mass hysteria is just one more ism the world doesn't need. As I said I am all for an alternative I wish that it was presented as a capitalist friendly option because that drives everything. As someone who spent seven years in the industry I am well aware of the emotional effects.
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 9:17:35 GMT
Anyway, we're moving slowly away from meat consumption in this country but I don't know if we'll ever see the majority eat vegan/veggie. Not in my lifetime at least. It seems that way yes. Last year I had to do some research for Bord Bia on beef perception by larger buyers in the Netherlands and Belgium. One of the things that came out of it is we do see the supermarket aisles for meat alternatives grow bigger each day. Regardless, meat consumpion hardly changes at all. There's a distinct possibility that some consumers eat a veg alternative one day, and celebrate that the next by eating bigger than usual portions of the 'real thing'. (the figures are different in the UK, where there has been a decrease in total meat consumption of 16.5% since 2008)
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 9:30:14 GMT
Hey man , don't quote the headline if the story is different you know? My point as far as I am concerned still stands. To be fair you thought it had relevance that's why it is there. The argument that we are conditioned to eat meat as some sort of matrix driven mass hysteria is just one more ism the world doesn't need. As I said I am all for an alternative I wish that it was presented as a capitalist friendly option because that drives everything. As someone who spent seven years in the industry I am well aware of the emotional effects. I did not quote the headline at all, that was a quote from Kaplan. It is relevant as Nazism ( and many other agressive isms) relied on the same mechanisms as carnism. I must admit at first I was not happy with the comparison either but as I progressed through the book, I started to think well, it does make sense. One of the things she also argues is these systems can only exist if one particular specie believes they are on top of the foodchain and the other species are therefor inferior objects. That in itself is a product of culture. I am interested in your last sentence about the emotional effects. Which ones are that?
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Oct 14, 2021 9:33:54 GMT
15 quid for a fucking chicken?!
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Post by cousinlou on Oct 14, 2021 9:34:16 GMT
We are not that far from laboratory created meat at affordable prices. Does it feel like a way to go? Me, I definitely would. Or will. That is certainly a way to go. I am not sure how close we are at this point but the other day I saw a mesage from Perfect Day (a milk alternative start up for milk based on fermentation) that just raised $ 350 million to expand)
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Carnism
Oct 14, 2021 9:36:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Oct 14, 2021 9:36:51 GMT
15 quid for a fucking chicken?! Crackers. When fellas can roll out of the pubs at midnight and get a vegan chicken fillet burger for £3 at several places on the street home THEN we'll see real change.
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