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Post by tory on Jan 5, 2022 11:26:30 GMT
At least communists... have an agenda of improving the world, although maybe in mistaken ways. You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. ]t The Fascists, Communists and Nazis all had the same ideas - of improving the world. The Marxists wanted to get rid of the ruling classes because they were seen to be the barrier to progress, just as the Nazis viewed the Jews as the bacteria that infected the Aryan volk. The only difference I'd say about the Nazis was that they viewed things through a specific racial lens, whereas the Marxists view everything through a lens of power structures. In the end, both ideologies understood that the destruction of a certain thing was necessary in order to achieve certain goals. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2022 11:45:32 GMT
At least communists... have an agenda of improving the world, although maybe in mistaken ways. You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. Except there's nothing in the Communist Manifesto about totalitarianism or authoratarianism, quite the opposite in fact, I'd disagree with the idea that such things are inherent in the ideology. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2022 11:49:46 GMT
You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. ]t The Fascists, Communists and Nazis all had the same ideas - of improving the world. The Marxists wanted to get rid of the ruling classes because they were seen to be the barrier to progress, just as the Nazis viewed the Jews as the bacteria that infected the Aryan volk. The only difference I'd say about the Nazis was that they viewed things through a specific racial lens, whereas the Marxists view everything through a lens of power structures. In the end, both ideologies understood that the destruction of a certain thing was necessary in order to achieve certain goals. Again I'd challenge the accuracy of all that summary. Marx saw the ownership of wealth, through the ownership of the means of the production, by a small minority as a contradiction essentially which enslaved mankind. |
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Post by cousinlou on Jan 5, 2022 12:10:59 GMT
At least communists... have an agenda of improving the world, although maybe in mistaken ways. You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. The real divide isn't between far left and far right, they're two sides of the same coin. The choice that matters is between liberal (in the old-fashioned meaning of that word) democracy and totalitarianism. I don't think you can, really. It may be arguable that given enough absolute power in the hands of a few, this will often lead to totalitarianism. You could say the same about capitalism, especially the version where people like Trump or Bolsonara are at the wheel. Closer to home, look what happens in Poland, Turkey, and Hungary. |
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Post by tory on Jan 5, 2022 12:58:56 GMT
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Post by sloopjohnc on Jan 5, 2022 13:28:36 GMT
Personally I do think it's a bit daft because it's not as if the world is That bad. In fact, it's quite nice! It is. I try to be, if not quite overly optimistic, then fairly sanguine about the future. We live in a world where, by most measures, life is better for more people than ever before. Every Scott Walker thread that's started does not make either of your cases. |
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 5, 2022 13:35:10 GMT
Absolute bollocks. Hungary is one of the least democratic countries in Europe. I'm surprised The Guardian commissioned the piece quite honestly. Fischer has form for this - it's an odd point of view to hold for an educated Hungarian academic. I wonder if Orban has done him some favours in the past. |
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Post by Reasonable good Nick on Jan 5, 2022 13:49:21 GMT
You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. Except there's nothing in the Communist Manifesto about totalitarianism or authoratarianism, quite the opposite in fact, I'd disagree with the idea that such things are inherent in the ideology. How do you institute and maintain communism without those things? Utopian ideologies often sound fine (at least to neophytes who don't know any history) until they run up against reality. No communist state has ever been able to operate without extreme authoritarianism, coercion and repression. You can say they are not explicit in the theory. They sure as hell are implicit though. Which makes the point irrelevant, I think. |
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Post by tory on Jan 5, 2022 15:46:16 GMT
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wobblie
god
Just a prick out to make a name for himself.
Posts: 1,230
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Post by wobblie on Jan 5, 2022 21:06:24 GMT
I feel so much better about the future after reading a random tweet from some old dude I've never heard of. Just marvelous.
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Post by cousinlou on Jan 6, 2022 12:10:27 GMT
You could fairly say exactly the same thing about fascists, if you understand them on their own terms, as you do with communists. This is a longstanding misconception about communists, that they ultimately mean well, but are just a bit extreme in their views and methods. It's a lie. Communism is as malign an ideology as Nazism. The totalitarianism, persecution and bloodbaths are all baked in there from the start. ]t The Fascists, Communists and Nazis all had the same ideas - of improving the world. The Marxists wanted to get rid of the ruling classes because they were seen to be the barrier to progress, just as the Nazis viewed the Jews as the bacteria that infected the Aryan volk. The only difference I'd say about the Nazis was that they viewed things through a specific racial lens, whereas the Marxists view everything through a lens of power structures. In the end, both ideologies understood that the destruction of a certain thing was necessary in order to achieve certain goals. Fascism isn't really a vision like Communism or Nazism. It can lean on either right- or left wing beliefs. It is a means to an end. I am sure that you'll be hard pressed to find any belief system that sets out to deteriorate the world. Personally I belief the USA democracy under Trump carried a lot of the hallmarks of both fascism and authoritarianism. The same with Poland, Turkey and Hungary (and more) The moment goverments hinder free speech, journalism and replace high court judges with people of their own ilk you're on a steep slope. |
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Post by bungo the mungo on Jan 6, 2022 12:16:00 GMT
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Post by cousinlou on Jan 6, 2022 12:21:33 GMT
Although the author is not writing total BS, he's giving far too much leeway to how 'liberal' has a different meaning to Orban than to westerners. Orban studied political science at Oxford an does not know the meaning of liberalism? Here's what the EU thinks about him in an article by the NYT: www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/world/europe/hungary-european-union.html |
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