loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Jan 9, 2020 22:15:46 GMT
And that's what he's got over NY, Dylan, Stevie. Love them as much as you like, I don't know if they influenced any fashion movement at their peaks. I don't begrudge him that one bit. Nor is it a quality that I find "wanting" in my other heroes of that era. I'd probably enjoy the Neil Young museum in very different ways (the corpses of former collaborators he's fired over the decades). It IS adrift from Dougie's original bit, but...I suppose it kind of HAS to be.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,993
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Post by loveless on Jan 9, 2020 22:23:02 GMT
It really was a hell of a decade, no matter who you ask.
I hand you over to Clark Dratchler of Johnny Hates Jazz.
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Jan 9, 2020 22:29:30 GMT
Can we lock John in here and make sure he writes hourly?
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 9, 2020 22:55:06 GMT
If the essence of that divide is "I'm not getting back into the van until you say that 'Bowie's IT!'", I can accept it quite comfortably. It's not that, but if I were to say to people Chas n' Dave were greater songwriters than Bob Dylan, they wouldn't say "Well that's a reasonable view". If that's a reference to my statement that Willie Nelson has written a better catalogue of songs than Bowie, well, I was being absolutely honest and sincere in that opinion, and if you think that's like comparing Chas n' Dave to Dylan, you are massively underselling Willie Nelson's catalogue. "Crazy," "Funny How Time Slips Away," "Night Life" (a song so universal that it's been covered in essentially every genre imaginable) "Hello Walls," fucking "Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground" (speaking of Dylan...) In terms of well-written songs, I'd actually argue that claiming Bowie was better at it than Willie is the more unreasonable opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 23:48:47 GMT
It's not that, but if I were to say to people Chas n' Dave were greater songwriters than Bob Dylan, they wouldn't say "Well that's a reasonable view". If that's a reference to my statement that Willie Nelson has written a better catalogue of songs than Bowie, well, I was being absolutely honest and sincere in that opinion, and if you think that's like comparing Chas n' Dave to Dylan, you are massively underselling Willie Nelson's catalogue. "Crazy," "Funny How Time Slips Away," "Night Life" (a song so universal that it's been covered in essentially every genre imaginable) "Hello Walls," fucking "Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground" (speaking of Dylan...) In terms of well-written songs, I'd actually argue that claiming Bowie was better at it than Willie is the more unreasonable opinion. I reckon I'd rather listen to "Rabbit" than all those. I am winding you up a little bit, but maybe something like Willie Nelson doesn't travel that well. It's something that's very much working within a tradition, whereas Bowie was the opposite of that approach.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 9, 2020 23:57:22 GMT
If that's a reference to my statement that Willie Nelson has written a better catalogue of songs than Bowie, well, I was being absolutely honest and sincere in that opinion, and if you think that's like comparing Chas n' Dave to Dylan, you are massively underselling Willie Nelson's catalogue. "Crazy," "Funny How Time Slips Away," "Night Life" (a song so universal that it's been covered in essentially every genre imaginable) "Hello Walls," fucking "Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground" (speaking of Dylan...) In terms of well-written songs, I'd actually argue that claiming Bowie was better at it than Willie is the more unreasonable opinion. I reckon I'd rather listen to "Rabbit" than all those. I am winding you up a little bit, but maybe something like Willie Nelson doesn't travel that well. It's something that's very much working within a tradition, whereas Bowie was the opposite of that approach.
I’m winding you up a bit as well! Re: tradition, Willie Nelson is hardly traditional. His entire career, at least from 1970 on, was all about rejecting tradition, whether it was shunning Nashville, growing his hair long and embracing pot (which, in the country music world, was as radical as anything Bowie ever did in the rock world), ditching the suits and ties of country acts for the type of clothing a rock band might wear, rejecting the sugary string-laden production his contemporaries were beholden to, and having a singing and guitar-playing style that was far closer to jazz than to the type of country his peers were making at the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 0:02:04 GMT
I did know about that ( well the long hair and pot bit anyway) but his music still sounds very traditional to me and not particularly interesting. But thanks for taking the trouble to explain. Anyway I'm going to put it to the Preludin test!
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 0:02:18 GMT
And I should probably add, I do like Bowie! I've got most of his '70s albums, saw (and loved) the incredible Bowie exhibit that Loveless mentioned upthread somewhere, and do think he had a big cultural impact! I just think that impact was far more concentrated in the UK, and as a result, the Brits on our board regard him in a manner that seems incredibly overrated to my dull American mind!
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 0:03:31 GMT
And I should probably add, I do like Bowie! I've got most of his '70s albums, saw (and loved) the incredible Bowie exhibit that Loveless mentioned upthread somewhere, and do think he had a big cultural impact! I just think that impact was far more concentrated in the UK, and as a result, the Brits on our board regard him in a manner that seems incredibly overrated to my dull American mind! I also think that even his best albums are somewhat patchy, and that he released a whole lot of turds (and that I really never need to hear anything he did after 1980 again)!
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Jan 10, 2020 0:19:25 GMT
Yes, I was going to say that there isn't a single Bowie album I can enjoy all the way through (altho' Ziggy and Diamond Dogs come very close). It always seems that in his quest to push the envelope he ends up making the occasional just-plain-horrible noise - even at his peak.
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loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Jan 10, 2020 1:33:22 GMT
In terms of "least skippable moments", I would concur that Ziggy and Diamond Dogs are top of the heap.
Even the records I play most all have at least ONE test of endurance.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Jan 10, 2020 1:36:43 GMT
In terms of "least skippable moments", I would concur that Ziggy and Diamond Dogs are top of the heap. Even the records I play most all have at least ONE test of endurance. I’d agree on those two having the fewest skippable moments, though my favorite Bowie album remains Hunky Dory.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,993
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Post by loveless on Jan 10, 2020 1:38:09 GMT
Yeah, I've made it my life's work to grit my teeth through "Song for Bob Dylan".
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Post by osgood on Jan 10, 2020 8:25:53 GMT
I'm having some trouble at the influencer thing regarding Bowie. Sure he was massively influencing in some moves, but he was also a follower in many of his dress changes. Young Americans wasn't exacly original, was it? Also on Let's Dance, 1.Outside, Tin Machine or Earthing he is mostly jumping on moving wagons.
(ducks off for shelter)
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Jan 10, 2020 8:34:04 GMT
Well, you've singled out the albums which showed him following rather than leading, so I wouldn't disagree with your point.
But I think it's inarguable that he's the artist with the single biggest influence over the whole 80s UK pop scene. Adam Ant, Boy George, Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran....and the 'high art' stuff too. Who wasn't touched by what he'd done in the preceding decade?
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