loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 12, 2023 15:26:13 GMT
 Believe me, I thought long and hard about whether to risk a) such a potentially niche thread and b) having it sink like a stone. But then I thought about all of these damn stories, all the niche characters, subplots, the ongoing morality play, and just how utterly compelling the whole thing is...the fact that I am on my second viewing of both programs, and that so many of my friends - when I belatedly dove in - were on their second or third viewings...I dunno, it felt like it might have some legs here. I've sort of staked myself to the reality that I will likely spend the rest of my days sporadically revisiting each arm of the franchise the way we we rewatch certain types of films. I didn't do that with Six Feet Under, I didn't do it with WKRP in Cincinnati. Maybe there's something qualitatively unique about these creations that promotes a type of immersion and revisitation. 1) If you've watched, which installments did you watch (BCS, BB, EC)? Partial or complete? And more than once? Sequence? 2) Characters. Who do you feel compelled by, intrigued by, wish to see more of? Minor AND major characters- damn! 3) If you've gone back (the equivalent of retaking the exam having now studied the answer key), how has this "future knowledge" influenced your rewatch? 4) Themes, moral issues, etc.  |
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,242
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Post by toomanyhatz on Mar 12, 2023 19:18:37 GMT
I’ll say more later- on my way to a rehearsal now - but one generality I can make about his world is that it’s always morally ambiguous and he plays with your sympathies constantly.
That and the Shakespearean nature of the whole thing. All characters are responsible for the foibles and those of their loved ones. And that seems to go for every single character, even the minor ones.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 12, 2023 19:27:16 GMT
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Post by fonz on Mar 12, 2023 20:24:13 GMT
Just finished BCS.
STUNNING
I didn’t enjoy the first series or two of BB- it picked up nicely.
But BCS…
I feel the need to start BB again. As you say, the multilayered, multifaceted nature of the whole thing makes me wonder what I
missed first time around. I AM ADDICTED!
There’s some good analysis on C&B and Hoffman, but I don’t want to explore that without watching the whole thing again.
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Post by Stacy Heydon on Mar 12, 2023 23:18:22 GMT
I enjoyed Beaking Bad a lot. I found Better Call Saul boring...at least the first few episodes. Maybe I should go back to it, but it seems a lot of effort to force yourself to watch something you're not enjoying. I thought the BB spin off film with Jesse was pretty weak to be honest. It was as if they didn't quite get the pacing of film and it missed that multi-layered ensemble playing of the tv series. The story didn't seem strong enough to sustain a film.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 13, 2023 13:46:16 GMT
one generality I can make about his world is that it’s always morally ambiguous and he plays with your sympathies constantly. This may be one of the most engaging features for me, personally. He really works the angle that these characters are NEVER just one thing. People who are introduced with PROMINENT flaws might have some genuine and legitimate motivations, may be driven by realities and experiences that exist in conflict with our initial sympathies. To that end, where we go with James McGill, with Chuck McGill, with Howard Hamlin, even with Kim Wexler (to say nothing of the likes of Walter White or Mike Ehrmantraut)...it's a hell of a journey. I will say that a lot of prominent BCS characters, actions, and events are hitting quite differently the second time around. I think the Kettlemans (maybe Betsy especially) serve a purpose early on in BCS of really introducing an extreme version of something that keeps coming back throughout the series - a fundamental self-delusion about who and what we are. And, yeah, obviously Walter White - that we initially see him putting his disabled son's bullies in their place, dealing with Ken the blowhard (KENWINS), even his dynamic with the big shot macho brother in law...the power of the sort of identifications that are built is difficult to temper even when there is overwhelming evidence that we probably should. That Eric Clapton is used (early in BB) as a totem/shorthand for "yuppie materialism" seems like yet another tone setting device. And, my God - I don't even know where to begin with the casting. These actors really ARE the ultimate version of their characters, far beyond the demands of television as we know it. Even Jesse Plemons coming back into a past timeline looking radically different than the last time we saw him - it just doesn't matter. You and I can see it, but it has no bearing on how we buy him as that very same character. It's as if the show writers are saying "Yep - you can see this glaring physiological continuity error with the actor/character, and...you're not even gonna care, so compelling is the overall context." What do we make of Elliot and Gretchen? What do we make of Walter's version of that dynamic and those people? |
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,242
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Post by toomanyhatz on Mar 14, 2023 0:20:51 GMT
which installments did you watch (BCS, BB, EC)? Partial or complete? And more than once? Sequence?
Watched all three, complete and straight through, then repeated ones my wife hadn't seen yet to watch with her (which turned out to be all of Breaking Bad, El Camino, and the first six episodes of BCS. She joined in after episode 6 - AKA Mike's Back Story - which blew me away when I watched it for the first time. She was hooked in from that point as she agrees with me that it's one of the best single episodes of any TV series ever made. Which I'd mention to G if he ever did try it again - start from that one).
Characters. Who do you feel compelled by, intrigued by, wish to see more of? Minor AND major characters- damn!
Oh man, Mike!! Couldn't get enough of him. Just so matter-of-fact and honest. And so unflappable, which (hopefully I can be vague enough about this for it to not be a spoiler) leads to his downfall when he doesn't take the people who he considers mere annoyances seriously enough.
The exact point of 'moral compromise' is a telltale sign for all of the characters, pretty much. Mike seems like he had his a long enough time ago that he focuses exclusively on the one thing that Walter says is his only motivation - taking care of his family. (The 'morality' ship having already sailed.)
Jesse's pretty amazing too. Gilligan puts him through more than any other character, so I was so happy for him when he had his final epiphany (and also left it ambiguous as to how well his 'new life' worked out for him).
But most of the major characters are 'not what they seem'. Hank is brash, obnoxious, sexist, racist, etc. - but he has the strongest moral code in the end. And he may have a combative relationship with Gomey, but it's clear that he considers him family and loves him and feels very protective of him even as he pours on the politically incorrect insults. As the show goes on, you like Hank more and more, and Walter less and less (or at least I did).
The one minor character I wish there'd been more of - and I'm probably alone in this - is Jake Pinkman. Not because the character himself was so compelling - he was a bit dull, in fact, which is probably why Gilligan dropped the storyline entirely - but more in terms of Jesse's relationship with his parents and with other kids. It's one of the more interesting developments in Jesse's character the more he interacts with kids, who he seems to have a natural rapport with. The scenes with Jake seem stilted by comparison. But I wondered in those interactions how it shaped Jesse's character. You could almost make a case that he sacrificed himself and allowed himself to be the black sheep so that their golden child could live his double-life of looking up to Jesse and going down the same path to a much more controlled degree. When does the pressure of trying to live up to his success get to him and lead him farther down the bad road that his brother traveled? We don't really get an answer, which is a shame. But I guess he can't tie up every story.
If you've gone back (the equivalent of retaking the exam having now studied the answer key), how has this "future knowledge" influenced your rewatch?
I watched BCS first - looped Carolyn in at episode six, as I said - then started to watch Breaking Bad on my own when we got to about season 3. So some of it I'm a bit unclear about when I knew what, but I was able to tell her (without it being too much of a spoiler) to not make too many assumptions about any of the characters. Particularly Jesse, who I still think has the widest arc of any character, including Walter. And damn, what an actor Aaron Paul is! He wears it all in his expressions. He tells you so much just from his reactions.
Themes, moral issues, etc.
I suspect Vince Gilligan's epitaph will say 'people are complex.' Nobody says it better. There is not a single character - major or minor - that is completely likeable or detestable. And they are all constantly being hateful to those they claim to love, and loving toward those they claim to hate. Not to mention how many 'evil but polite' or 'moral but rude' characters there are.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 14, 2023 13:36:50 GMT
episode 6 - AKA Mike's Back Story - which blew me away when I watched it for the first time. She was hooked in from that point as she agrees with me that it's one of the best single episodes of any TV series ever made. Which I'd mention to G if he ever did try it again - start from that one). You've given me a hell of a lot to chew on here, BUT - this is a pretty major bullet point worth highlighting. Saying nothing of Banks' performances - as an episode, and a story, this seems like a crucial way into BCS for those who loved BB and found themselves struggling to find an in to BCS. I second hatz' recommendation that if THIS doesn't do it, NOTHING will. It's just stunning. |
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Post by fonz on Mar 14, 2023 16:09:41 GMT
I hadn’t seen Camino, and settled in to watch it today….
Then quickly decided I need to rewatch BB.
Did I make the correct decision?
No Camino spoilers please…
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 14, 2023 16:19:27 GMT
I hadn’t seen Camino, and settled in to watch it today…. Then quickly decided I need to rewatch BB. Did I make the correct decision? No Camino spoilers please… I, personally, see Camino as a part of BB (an epilogue, perhaps?), so my own thinking is that it works pretty damn well right after BB, but...if you are now feeling disconnected from your memories of BB characters, plotlines, etc. enough so that you'd rather be more in tune with those things before continuing the journey into Camino? Yeah, maybe a rewatch makes sense. How long has it been since you completed BB? |
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Post by oh oooh on Mar 14, 2023 16:27:00 GMT
And damn, what an actor Aaron Paul is! He wears it all in his expressions. He tells you so much just from his reactions. He was always the weakest thing about BB, for me. So much so that my heart sank whenever he appeared, with all his 'YO WASSUP BRO!' stuff. He always seemed two dimensional, even considering what he went through. Or rather, how he reacted to what they put him through. I feel the same way as G about BCS, but I'm pretty sure I'll get back to it (I only watched the first two episodes) because quite literally everyone I know who watched it praises it to the skies. Although without Bryan Cranston, it's going to have one hell of a hole to fill... |
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Post by fonz on Mar 14, 2023 18:44:37 GMT
I hadn’t seen Camino, and settled in to watch it today…. Then quickly decided I need to rewatch BB. Did I make the correct decision? No Camino spoilers please… I, personally, see Camino as a part of BB (an epilogue, perhaps?), so my own thinking is that it works pretty damn well right after BB, but...if you are now feeling disconnected from your memories of BB characters, plotlines, etc. enough so that you'd rather be more in tune with those things before continuing the journey into Camino? Yeah, maybe a rewatch makes sense. How long has it been since you completed BB? The last couple of seasons I watched as they were released-seems like a while ago now, and 1 episode back into BB I can say I’m enjoying it a lot more than first time around. Superficial stuff now has ‘enigma’ attached, if that makes sense. first time around I hated Skyler, and Walt actually. I’m more sympathetic now. Jessie is soooo entertaining. yeah, I think it’s the right decision, lols. cheers |
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 14, 2023 23:29:55 GMT
I feel the same way as G about BCS, but I'm pretty sure I'll get back to it (I only watched the first two episodes) because quite literally everyone I know who watched it praises it to the skies. Although without Bryan Cranston, it's going to have one hell of a hole to fill... Without giving too much away, I will say... 1) There is an overall dynamic pacing that might inhibit those prone to an itchy bum during the first couple of episodes. Me on a rewatch is, at the very least, personal testimony that I think it is very much worth returning to. 2) People told me it was BETTER than BB when I was finishing BB. I thought they were mad, or...at the very least, I was skeptical. I may now share their view. 3) Cranston as Walter/Heisenberg is assuredly nothing to fuck with. And yet...there are performers in BCS that deliver a HELL of a lot. One is a beloved veteran whom I would argue turns in the performance of his career in BCS. |
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Post by Stacy Heydon on Mar 15, 2023 3:21:59 GMT
How many episodes do you have to watch before it starts getting good?
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Post by davey on Mar 22, 2023 3:44:55 GMT
How many episodes do you have to watch before it starts getting good? In a shallow sense, get to episode 6 (the Mike back story one). That should seal the deal. But it really isn’t a matter of it “getting good.” It’s just gonna get deeper and deeper, and a lot of the stuff you’ve already seen is gonna keep growing in meaning. Basically…it starts out good. It’s just going to take you a little while to fully connect with what you’re seeing. |
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