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Post by davey on Mar 22, 2023 3:56:53 GMT
I’m definitely a Saul partisan. My favorite character being Nacho (or Nacho’s father, even more). Hank would be my favorite in BB…and yeah….Mike throughout.
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is that people tell themselves stories about why they do what they do. Both shows seem to be about negotiating the differences between our stories and the actual reasons and desires that drive us.
Both shows have moments and plot contrivances that stretch belief. But they also have these jaw-dropping moments of clarity.
Television is a medium that seldom pays off. Especially in long-running “quality” shows. You tend to hit a point where it’s clear they are just riffing. But Gilligan’s shows always clear the fog at the end and give you a reason for making it the whole way. It’s really something.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 22, 2023 10:11:27 GMT
I watched the first couple of seasons of Saul and gave up. I should return I guess because so many people have praised it after that. But...it definitely lacked the compelling zippiness of Breaking Bad.
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Post by oh oooh on Mar 22, 2023 10:18:30 GMT
I found Better Call Saul boring...at least the first few episodes. Maybe I should go back to it, but it seems a lot of effort to force yourself to watch something you're not enjoying. I feel the same way as G about BCS, but I'm pretty sure I'll get back to it (I only watched the first two episodes) I watched the first couple of seasons of Saul and gave up. I should return I guess because so many people have praised it after that. But...it definitely lacked the compelling zippiness of Breaking Bad. I wonder if this is another of our US/UK differences? or just that you need to give BCS time?
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 22, 2023 10:23:22 GMT
I liked it enough and it was great revisiting that world but it felt so slow at times that it was stretching my patience to breaking point. Both me and the ex had enough.
From what others said it picks up after that but it sounds like a very slow burner and, you know, life is short. Ten episodes a series. 6 series. It's a decent time commitment.
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Post by oh oooh on Mar 22, 2023 10:26:26 GMT
Exactly.
I'm halfway through a rewatch of The Sopranos and loving it - but it's definitely less flashy than most recent TV series. You have to go to it more than it comes to you.
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Post by Stacy Heydon on Mar 22, 2023 11:50:35 GMT
Did any of the Breaking Bad fans watch Ozark? There are obvious similarities between the two. Maybe Ozark didn't have the same depth with regard to the Faustian arc Walter goes on, but in many ways it was more purely entertaining, certainly in terms of its ensemble cast.
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Post by fonz on Mar 22, 2023 11:58:08 GMT
Ozark was good. Some great characters- Ruth is a hoot.
Take home message: Cartel folks are bad news.
Just say no
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Mar 22, 2023 13:33:23 GMT
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is that people tell themselves stories about why they do what they do. Both shows seem to be about negotiating the differences between our stories and the actual reasons and desires that drive us. I mean, Chuck McGill may be as compelling as it gets for me, and - almost entirely - for the reasons you mention. I mean, he REALLY falls back on self-narrating with an insufferable loftiness...leans on it like a crutch, but...he's as questionably motivated (and ruthless about it) as anyone I can name. How much of his shit makes Howard who HE is? How much of it makes Jimmy who HE is? Our effect on others seems to be a recurring/constant element of both programs. And...Chuck...his denials, such as they are...how profoundly and critically is HE affected by them?
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 22, 2023 13:54:57 GMT
I would need to watch it again to really add anything even edging towards interesting.
A large part of the shows appeal was Walter as an anti-hero. There was just something immensely satisfying about watching him shake all those shackles off and embracing the dark side but for most of it you were pretty much with him all the way. He's one of those characters who gets at something universal and troubling that we don't always acknowledge but which exists within us. That desire to just be sociopathic and completely self-interested and ruthless in a way that becomes a fantasy. But then he was doing it for the wife and kid but then at what point did it really become just about him and, if we are being honest, you can recognise that impulse/desire in yourself too, no?
Certainly as a portrayal of a good man gone bad I can't think of another in modern TV/cinema that is as well rounded, as compelling and as believable as this one.
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Post by davey on Mar 22, 2023 14:47:38 GMT
I’ll say this… this show (BCS) needs to be binged.
The way they released episodes (with more than a year in between seasons) really does BCS a disservice. It’s a really subtle show. Small things can be incredibly meaningful. But you lose those when you wait a year then try to come back.
As the show reached its finale, it re-watched the whole thing right up until the final episodes were released. I got so much more from it that way than previously. Especially the Jimmy/Kim love story. One detail that becomes clear is that Jimmy only takes the bar for her. That wasn’t clear on first watch, but it’s clear as day coming back to it. There are a lot of things like that that add up as the show goes.
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Post by davey on Mar 22, 2023 15:02:34 GMT
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is that people tell themselves stories about why they do what they do. Both shows seem to be about negotiating the differences between our stories and the actual reasons and desires that drive us. I mean, Chuck McGill may be as compelling as it gets for me, and - almost entirely - for the reasons you mention. I mean, he REALLY falls back on self-narrating with an insufferable loftiness...leans on it like a crutch, but...he's as questionably motivated (and ruthless about it) as anyone I can name. How much of his shit makes Howard who HE is? How much of it makes Jimmy who HE is? Our effect on others seems to be a recurring/constant element of both programs. And...Chuck...his denials, such as they are...how profoundly and critically is HE affected by them? Apparently Rhea Seehorn (Kim) gave an interview just a few weeks ago and talked about the development of Chuck’s character. According to her, he wasn’t meant to be an antagonist at first. He was merely a device supposedly to show Jimmy’s softer side. But Michael McKean had this edge about him that they found themselves intrigued by.
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loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Mar 22, 2023 15:35:29 GMT
I’ll say this… this show (BCS) needs to be binged. I couldn't agree more. I had the good fortune of coming to both shows after the fact, which allowed me to either watch one episode per day, or...on some occasions, watch several in sequence with no pause. Rewatching sort of falls into the same category as bingeing - there's all of these through lines and threads that are initiated with zero fanfare and picked up in earnest pretty far down the timeline. And...yeah, far easier to get engaged in that type of content when you aren't living through these extended pauses.
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loveless
god
Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 2,799
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Post by loveless on Mar 22, 2023 23:53:39 GMT
I would need to watch it again to really add anything even edging towards interesting. A large part of the shows appeal was Walter as an anti-hero. There was just something immensely satisfying about watching him shake all those shackles off and embracing the dark side but for most of it you were pretty much with him all the way. He's one of those characters who gets at something universal and troubling that we don't always acknowledge but which exists within us. That desire to just be sociopathic and completely self-interested and ruthless in a way that becomes a fantasy. But then he was doing it for the wife and kid but then at what point did it really become just about him and, if we are being honest, you can recognise that impulse/desire in yourself too, no? Certainly as a portrayal of a good man gone bad I can't think of another in modern TV/cinema that is as well rounded, as compelling and as believable as this one. One of the things I enjoy about watching with people who haven't yet completed it (my wife is in EARLY Season Three - she just saw the pizza go up on the roof) is that (in the main) they haven't turned on Walter yet (a lot of people feel that they CAN'T unhate him once they accept what a shit he is). We absolutely have "our worst angels". All of us. And for Vince Gilligan to really use that as the crux of his enterprise (creating "sympathetic monsters" who appeal to a lot of what lurks within us)...I find it majorly compelling. I mean, I'm rewatching both shows and...especially with BCS, I can't stop rooting for certain characters whom I KNOW are deeply flawed. On a rewatch, I'm seeing the flaws with infinitely more clarity and far earlier in the series, and...I don't even know that it matters.
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Post by davey on Mar 23, 2023 10:44:22 GMT
Another thing that’s fascinating about re-watching, is paying attention to how few junctures at which the characters have any meaningful choices. The Gilligan universe isn’t really one with a lot of free will.
Once Walter White decides to make and sell meth, he’s pretty immediately left with bodies to deal with and an ever-spiraling set of circumstances. There are decisions and inflection points along the way. But seldom any exit routes.
Similarly, once the skateboarders make the fateful error of mistaking Tuco’s grandmother’s car for Betsy Kettleman’s - he’s essentially cartel-associated. He can still decide how big a dick he wants to be to Howard Hamlin (which gives him the illusion of free will), but his future with the Salamancas isn’t really in his control.
When you go back and watch it all unfold again, it’s interesting to isolate the moments that serve as forks in the road. They are very often very small, and not terribly well-marked.
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loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Mar 23, 2023 11:21:14 GMT
Once Walter White decides to make and sell meth, he’s pretty immediately left with bodies to deal with and an ever-spiraling set of circumstances. There are decisions and inflection points along the way. But seldom any exit routes. I feel like those first three seasons are riddled with moments where he keeps thinking he's somehow gotten out (actually, this continues at least through most of season four) and put the game behind him - if you made a timeline strictly of him attempting to make a break and getting pulled back in, it would be quite populous and resemble something like a running gag.
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