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Post by adamcoan on Sept 5, 2023 19:54:47 GMT
Would apologies resolve anything ?
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Post by tory on Sept 5, 2023 20:15:06 GMT
Of course it wouldn't. And the problem is that even an apology wouldn't actually do anything. Some people want money - pure and simple - and they'll jump on the back of any movement that looks to "explore the role of slavery" even if their own claims are often weak.
The whole problem with this issue is that there is significant historical evidence that suggests that slavery was pretty much the norm pretty much everywhere except Christian Europe until the Industrialisation of the world. Whilst chattel slavery, which reached its terrible apogee in the Caribbean, pretty much doesn't, estimates think around 40 million people are in indentured slavery of some form somewhere.
Britan's role in Slavery is undoubted - from around the start of the 17th century to around 1805, Britain fully participated in the slave trade like all the other major European powers of the time, but many historians observe that the money made was not decisive in making Britain the most formidable empire of the 19th century. It certainly helped, but it is estimated that most money was made by Plantation owners as individuals, rather than helping to build the institutions that made modern Britain. It is also worth noting that whilst Britain's treasury was helped by money made from slavery, Britain also fought and won a revolutionary war against France that lasted twenty years, which cost an exorbitant amount of money, the sort of equivalent cost that would have bankrupted us today. It is analogous to how the British Empire played a crucial part during WW2 in keeping the fight going against Hitler. The UK and its Empire was the only combatant to fight constantly in some form from September 1939 to August 1945, and could have only done so with the resources it gained from the Empire.
The big issue is that I have no idea why Britain alone has to apologise for the slave trade when, from around 1808, with the Royal Navy blockading Africa after abolishing slavery (and paying off slave owners to essentially prop up the economy, just like the Govt propped up the banks after the financial crisis), Britain embarked on a very costly and time-consuming battle to end slavery across the world. No-one else did this - and there was huge opposition for some time against them. The United States only joined in later, particularly when it was politically advantageous for Lincoln to do so. Countries like
If Britain apologised, then Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Germany and the Dutch have to also, as do various nations and Kingdoms, mostly muslim, do so also. And so do countries like Brazil. And the apology is utterly meaningless if slavery continues to exist, in significant numbers, in some form.
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Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Sept 5, 2023 20:45:47 GMT
Thanks for the history lesson, but your last paragraph is just silly.
"We apologize for our role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade." How is that meaningless, even if slavery does continue to exist?
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Post by tory on Sept 5, 2023 21:06:36 GMT
It is utterly meaningless.
If you found out that an ancestor of yours committed an abominable crime, do you have to apologise for it and why?
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Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Sept 5, 2023 21:48:22 GMT
That’s an individual. We’re talking about a government policy.
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Slavery.
Sept 5, 2023 22:13:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by adamcoan on Sept 5, 2023 22:13:31 GMT
I mean, where do you start with this kind of thing.
Where do you stop ?
Preludin: it's over to you.
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Post by Stacy Heydon on Sept 5, 2023 23:56:55 GMT
If Britain apologised, then Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Germany and the Dutch have to also, as do various nations and Kingdoms, mostly muslim, do so also. And so do countries like Brazil. And the apology is utterly meaningless if slavery continues to exist, in significant numbers, in some form. And various African tribes who profited from slavery. It certainly wasn't limited to white Europeans.
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Slavery.
Sept 6, 2023 4:03:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by davey on Sept 6, 2023 4:03:59 GMT
I mean… what exactly does refusing an apology accomplish?
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Post by tory on Sept 6, 2023 5:37:00 GMT
That’s an individual. We’re talking about a government policy. Slavery was not a Government policy per se, at least in the UK - that's the issue. It was a form of economic activity that certainly helped tax revenues, in that people who made money from slavery paid into tax coffers, but that's about it. But the UK Government did not practice slavery; it was never practiced in the UK itself and was a by-product of colonial practice pretty much only in the Americas. Slavery did not exist in India - although obviously there was an existing caste system; nor did it exist in Australia either, which as a place in terms of its absolute gap in terms of technological advantage, surely must have been ripe for slavery. Why? Because European adventurers and mercantilist organisations took advantage of existing slave networks in Africa, which had in existence for a thousand years at the very least and used them in an economic sense to make profits. The thing is, when you compare chattel slavery in the Caribbean and Americas, there isn't really an enormous difference between them and the lot of the average industrial worker in late 18th and early 19th century Britain. The mortality rate was high, working conditions were absolutely dreadful and whilst people were nominally free, they were essentially "owned" for want of a better phrase by exploitative factory owners (not all were it must be said). People who did not work were sent to workhouses, which were a form of prison. So, unfortunately, there isn't really a straightforward answer apart from the absolute fact that Britain took the leading role in ending the Slave trade.
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Post by DarknessFish on Sept 6, 2023 6:34:10 GMT
Dougie looking for the "bring it back" poll option.
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Slavery.
Sept 6, 2023 6:53:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by davey on Sept 6, 2023 6:53:54 GMT
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Post by DayoRemix on Sept 6, 2023 7:15:22 GMT
As long a nobody is apologizing for people being a Slave to the Rhythm!
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Post by cousinlou on Sept 6, 2023 7:56:20 GMT
Of course it wouldn't. And the problem is that even an apology wouldn't actually do anything. Some people want money - pure and simple - and they'll jump on the back of any movement that looks to "explore the role of slavery" even if their own claims are often weak. The whole problem with this issue is that there is significant historical evidence that suggests that slavery was pretty much the norm pretty much everywhere except Christian Europe until the Industrialisation of the world. Whilst chattel slavery, which reached its terrible apogee in the Caribbean, pretty much doesn't, estimates think around 40 million people are in indentured slavery of some form somewhere. Britan's role in Slavery is undoubted - from around the start of the 17th century to around 1805, Britain fully participated in the slave trade like all the other major European powers of the time, but many historians observe that the money made was not decisive in making Britain the most formidable empire of the 19th century. It certainly helped, but it is estimated that most money was made by Plantation owners as individuals, rather than helping to build the institutions that made modern Britain. It is also worth noting that whilst Britain's treasury was helped by money made from slavery, Britain also fought and won a revolutionary war against France that lasted twenty years, which cost an exorbitant amount of money, the sort of equivalent cost that would have bankrupted us today. It is analogous to how the British Empire played a crucial part during WW2 in keeping the fight going against Hitler. The UK and its Empire was the only combatant to fight constantly in some form from September 1939 to August 1945, and could have only done so with the resources it gained from the Empire. The big issue is that I have no idea why Britain alone has to apologise for the slave trade when, from around 1808, with the Royal Navy blockading Africa after abolishing slavery (and paying off slave owners to essentially prop up the economy, just like the Govt propped up the banks after the financial crisis), Britain embarked on a very costly and time-consuming battle to end slavery across the world. No-one else did this - and there was huge opposition for some time against them. The United States only joined in later, particularly when it was politically advantageous for Lincoln to do so. Countries like If Britain apologised, then Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Germany and the Dutch have to also, as do various nations and Kingdoms, mostly muslim, do so also. And so do countries like Brazil. And the apology is utterly meaningless if slavery continues to exist, in significant numbers, in some form. The Dutch - its PM- did in December last year.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Sept 6, 2023 8:07:59 GMT
Apologies? The cunt should be thanking us! lol.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Sept 6, 2023 8:28:43 GMT
It's all about incentives. In the acting and arts world currently this sort of statement naturally goes down well and he knows that. It's a smart thing to do really. Of course the usual white suspects are incentivised to agree, applaud and indulge in the self-flagellating, performative social dance because they are incentivised to do this for social status within their peer group. The two naturally feed off each other these days. Meanwhile slavery still exists worldwide including, of course, in Africa in significant numbers: www.statista.com/statistics/1399571/people-modern-slavery-africa-country/Yet how many people talk about this? But then what's the incentive to do so? What's the benefit?
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