Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Jun 5, 2020 21:29:06 GMT
talking about racism is racist.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:29:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 21:29:57 GMT
Markus said: ****I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive.*** Telling that you identify your bone of contention as: “you’re a racist” As opposed to: “that’s racist.” Do you see how you start off defending the imaginary white person from the get-go? Your first concern isn’t that something legitimately racist might have been said or done - but rather that someone may have been unfairly tarnished by the very suggestion. Apparently that bothers you more than racism itself. Markus again: ***As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules.**** Right. Pretty much like every other aspect of our lives. Markus again: *** It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him.**** We’ll return to the first example - but let’s start with that Black guy who is “comfortable” with “stereotype jokes.” I’ve been a version of that guy. In my case, I’ve let people make Jewish jokes in my presence. But let me tell you a little secret: No matter how comfortable your black friend is with you, he’s participating in that because he thinks he has to to put you at ease. He knows that his blackness puts a potential gulf between you, and he wants you to like him so much that he’s acknowledging the elephant in the room. Can you imagine always feeling like you had to do that. So much so that you are willing to absorb harmful stereotypes in order to gain that acceptance? I can guarantee you one thing about that friend. He’d MUCH rather not have all those elephants in that room. No matter how much he seems to enjoy the repartee, he’d prefer to just be your friend (as opposed to your comfortable-with stereotypes Black friend). Similarly - when you and your Italian friend do that mick/wop thing, you are poking at the scab of racism itself. You are essentially acknowledging your shared whiteness and making a little bit of fun at the touchiness of others who don’t just as easily allow epithets to roll off their back. In short / you are saying, “We got over it. Why can’t they?” Nudge nudge, wink wink. More Markus: ****What if two black people have a different view on something, one says it's racist and the other doesn't. Well are you racist or not. **** Again - look how you go to “are you racist?” as opposed to “is it racist?” The answer depends on the content of their argument. But Black people disagree and have their own perspectives, just like everyone else. Even on racism. The smart thing would be to try and respect both perspectives. Markus: ****Fallon got done for doing blackface back in the day. He was told it's racist by black people, tgen jamie fox said he had nothing to apologise for,which one is correct? Does the majority win or the lone voice of fox. *** It isn’t a zero-sum game where someone wins and someone loses. We are simply trying to learn how to respect each other. In that specific case, I think Fallon walked away with the conviction that he wouldn’t want to ever do that again, and Fox allowed him to learn from his mistake without taking on a lot of excess retroactive shame. Seems to me like everybody won. Markus: ****You can say well we'd need to debate it, go ahead but i got a million other situations that need debating too. If we debate them all we wouldn't have time to be racist. Good thing i suppose.**** How we treat each other in this world seems intrinsically worth the time to me. Maybe you are busy doing more important things - like hanging out on a message board. Markus: ****At the end of the day, if you want to live your life like that go ahead, i just think, again, it's counter productive.**** Right. Because you are fine with how things are. It benefits you. Try again Alot more unfounded assumptions.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:33:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 21:33:23 GMT
But what if, like i said, a person or group of people of a minority are ok with you using those words because you're a friend. Are you gonna lecture/tell a person of a minority to stop using their own pejorative or allowing someone to use it against them? Good luck with that. Lecture them? No. But I would stop using that language. If I were close enough, I might also at some point say, “Hey - you don’t have to do that.” Or better yet, ask them if they feel they have to. Might start an interesting conversation. Like part of your other post, you're patronising black people by assuming they are talking like that because they feel they have to or lecture them that they don't have to.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:38:42 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:38:42 GMT
Lecture them? No. But I would stop using that language. If I were close enough, I might also at some point say, “Hey - you don’t have to do that.” Or better yet, ask them if they feel they have to. Might start an interesting conversation. Like part of your other post, you're patronising black people by assuming they are talking like that because they feel they have to or lecture them that they don't have to. Again - back to my previous post. I’ve BEEN that guy. It has happened to me. It STILL happens to me. I can’t account for what every Black person ever feels in that situation. But I CAN tell you that you really shouldn’t take it for granted that it is truly okay - because a lot of times it isn’t.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:43:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 21:43:51 GMT
Like part of your other post, you're patronising black people by assuming they are talking like that because they feel they have to or lecture them that they don't have to. Again - back to my previous post. I’ve BEEN that guy. It has happened to me. It STILL happens to me. I can’t account for what every Black person ever feels in that situation. But I CAN tell you that you really shouldn’t take it for granted that it is truly okay - because a lot of times it isn’t. I'm sure it's not ok all the time, i have faith that a large majority of black people would say its not ok especially in these times where black people are calling out racism all the time.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:45:02 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:45:02 GMT
No Markus. I am not going to “try again.”
I’ve honestly never met a person who spent more time talking with people about this and any other number of subjects, who seemingly learned less in the process. Even Jimbo learns SOMETHING once in a while.
Meanwhile - if there is a specific “unfounded assumption” you want to unpack, tell me what it is and I’ll either defend it or be educated. But you ASKED me to respond point by point, so your blanket dismissal is a cowardly, bullshit response.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:46:48 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:46:48 GMT
Again - back to my previous post. I’ve BEEN that guy. It has happened to me. It STILL happens to me. I can’t account for what every Black person ever feels in that situation. But I CAN tell you that you really shouldn’t take it for granted that it is truly okay - because a lot of times it isn’t. I'm sure it's not ok all the time, i have faith that a large majority of black people would say its not ok especially in these times where black people are calling out racism all the time. I mean, why wouldn’t they? Especially to you - who has proved so willing to examine himself on the issue? 🙄
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:54:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 21:54:48 GMT
No Markus. I am not going to “try again.” I’ve honestly never met a person who spent more time talking with people about this and any other number of subjects, who seemingly learned less in the process. Even Jimbo learns SOMETHING once in a while. LOL this sentence just highlights your arrogance that you're right, simple as that. I just offered my point of view and suggested we just go on thinking what we want.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:57:03 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:57:03 GMT
Okay. I’m going to talk with interesting people now.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:57:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 21:57:34 GMT
I'm sure it's not ok all the time, i have faith that a large majority of black people would say its not ok especially in these times where black people are calling out racism all the time. I mean, why wouldn’t they? Especially to you - who has proved so willing to examine himself on the issue? 🙄 What does this even mean? you're assuming i do this, i call black people racist names because i think they're ok with this. Or i don't check myself in terms of racism because i disagree with your point of view, because it's the only point of view? An example of you assuming, again.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 22:01:52 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Jun 5, 2020 22:01:52 GMT
Again - back to my previous post. I’ve BEEN that guy. It has happened to me. It STILL happens to me. I can’t account for what every Black person ever feels in that situation. But I CAN tell you that you really shouldn’t take it for granted that it is truly okay - because a lot of times it isn’t. I'm sure it's not ok all the time, i have faith that a large majority of black people would say its not ok especially in these times where black people are calling out racism all the time. I can't see a white person using the "N" word as ever being okay. It is a word of hurt that can can only land one in hurt. There is so much baggage connected. It is a word with a boot and whip attached. In time, the black community will need to come to grips with its use, and the megaphone that is hip hop, social media, videos, etc.,
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 22:11:45 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 22:11:45 GMT
I mean, why wouldn’t they? Especially to you - who has proved so willing to examine himself on the issue? 🙄 What does this even mean? you're assuming i do this, i call black people racist names because i think they're ok with this. Or i don't check myself in terms of racism because i disagree with your point of view, because it's the only point of view? An example of you assuming, again. You admit above that it probably isn’t always okay. But you trust that most people will tell you. That means you are okay with hurting the ones who won’t. Meanwhile - you aren’t exactly showing yourself to have much ability to question yourself in this thread (or really - in the years and years of threads I’ve seen you participate in). If I had to tell you a hard truth and needed to trust in your willingness for self-examination, I sure as hell wouldn’t feel comfortable doing so.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 22:13:23 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 22:13:23 GMT
And now for real - on to smarter conversations with more interesting people.
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Deleted
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 22:22:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 22:22:06 GMT
Markus said:
****I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive.***
Telling that you identify your bone of contention as:
“you’re a racist”
As opposed to:
“That’s racist.”
Yes because we're talking about a constant frame of mind that "you're racist", not about spotting racism. There's a difference.
Do you see how you start off defending the imaginary white person from the get-go? Your first concern isn’t that something legitimately racist might have been said or done — but rather that someone may have been unfairly tarnished by the very suggestion. Apparently that bothers you more than racism itself.
Simply no, racism is one of the ultimate wrongs. Me choosing to disagree with your method isn't me picking anything over racism, it's me saying there has to be a better way. Another unfounded assumption.
Markus again: ***As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules.****
Right. Pretty much like every other aspect of our lives.
This isn't an answer.
Markus again: *** It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop, and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him.****
We’ll return to the first example — but let’s start with that Black guy who is “comfortable” with “stereotype jokes.” I’ve been a version of that guy. In my case, I’ve let people make Jewish jokes in my presence. But let me tell you a little secret: No matter how comfortable your black friend is with you, he’s participating in that because he thinks he has to put you at ease. He knows that his blackness puts a potential gulf between you, and he wants you to like him so much that he’s acknowledging the elephant in the room. Can you imagine always feeling like you had to do that. So much so that you are willing to absorb harmful stereotypes in order to gain that acceptance? I can guarantee you one thing about that friend. He’d MUCH rather not have all those elephants in that room. No matter how much he seems to enjoy the repartee, he’d prefer to just be your friend (as opposed to your comfortable-with stereotypes Black friend).
We addressed this in your other post. I disagree and have more faith in black people speaking up for themselves.
Similarly, — when you and your Italian friend do that mick/wop thing, you are poking at the scab of racism itself. You are essentially acknowledging your shared whiteness and making a little bit of fun at the touchiness of others who don’t just as easily allow epithets to roll off their back In short / you are saying, “We got over it. Why can’t they?” Nudge, wink.
This is laughable. By being friends with each other so much that we're able to call each other mick or wop it just highlights or whiteness? Like white people amongst each other are better at doing friend racism that black people? That's hilarious. Then the usual unfounded assumption "In short / you are saying, “We got over it. Why can’t they?” Nudge, wink." I think black people should just get over it? !" wow, scrapping the bottom of the barrel there David.
More Markus: ****What if two black people have a different view on something, one says it's racist and the other doesn't. Well are you racist or not. ****
Again — look how you go to “are you racist?” as opposed to “is it racist?”
Absolutely nothing to do with it, nothing.
The answer depends on the content of their argument. But Black people disagree and have their own perspectives, just like everyone else. Even on racism. The smart thing would be to try and respect both perspectives. How can you learn when you don't get an answer? How can you learn from the two perspectives?
Markus:
****Fallon got done for doing blackface back in the day. He was told it's racist by black people, then jamie fox said he had nothing to apologize for, which one is correct? Does the majority win or the lone voice of fox. ***
It isn’t a zero-sum game where someone wins and someone loses. We are simply trying to learn how to respect each other. Ok? In that specific case, I think Fallon walked away with the conviction that he wouldn’t want to ever do that again, and Fox allowed him to learn from his mistake without taking on a lot of excess retroactive shame. Seems to me like everybody won.
How did Fox help him learn from his mistake? That sounds like fox is saying "yeah you were wrong jimmy but it's good to see your mistake". No, fox said he had nothing to say sorry for, that 100% says he thinks fallon did nothing wrong. You just gave a vague answer.
Markus: ****You can say well we'd need to debate it, go ahead but i got a million other situations that need debating too. If we debate them all we wouldn't have time to be racist. Good thing i suppose.****
How we treat each other in this world seems intrinsically worth the time to me. Maybe you are busy doing more important things — like hanging out on a message board.
Yeah another assumption that this somehow means more to you just because i'm disagreeing with you. No, another show of arrogance.
Markus: ****At the end of the day, if you want to live your life like that go ahead, i just think, again, it's counter productive.****
Right. Because you are fine with how things are. It benefits you.
Another assumption, i fucking love all this racism because it suits me, it helps me, and i do NOT want to change the dynamic. In a round about way Davy is calling me racist. All because, i disagreed with him on this one point of view.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 22:23:39 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Jun 5, 2020 22:23:39 GMT
One on one I think is the way to go here. I would think what might begin as joking ribbing use of slurs would fall away as personal regard builds between two individuals that they might see how the terms are hurtful. I would tend to agree, know your audience so to speak. I know women that i make jokes about but not with other women for example. The main difference is they know I'm joking and they can give it back just as good. However "know you audience" can also be misconstrued as a way to tell a racist joke amongst other racist people, so it's a fine line. Most of the cutting edge work on race, gender, diversity, etc., has been done through the Women's Studies curriculum. So don't be surprised if a more layered/fierce MeToo agenda re-emerges built upon these protests. Gender is larger than any race, and as we have seen with race the patriarchy has not been equitable.
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