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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 19:07:40 GMT
I think the definition is important.
A big part of where we are today is that people feel that if they aren’t a part of the thing that ‘we all know when we see’ - that they aren’t participating in racism. I think I am being fair when I suggest that this is the position Markus is trying to articulate (please correct me if I’m wrong, Markus).
But that position doesn’t account for the things that are less visible to us. It doesn’t account for the fact that we have different statistics for everything from infant mortality, to incarceration, to inherited wealth, to literacy and education attainment, to death-from-coronavirus (and many, many more) for Black people and White people in the United States.
If we accept that as a given, we’ve already accepted a system of inequity. You don’t have to beat up a person for the color of their skin. You just have to accept the status quo as the natural order of things to participate in racism.
But yeah - the defensiveness about potentially being seen as ‘the bad guy’ is a huge part of the problem. The assumption that a ‘good guy’ is somehow constitutionally pure of racism is a terrible assumption.
A ‘good guy’ is a person who recognizes racism, owns up and works to improve themselves and their system.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 19:16:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 19:16:55 GMT
Yeah, no i don't think everyone should just assume their racist and we're in a better place. We get that that is what you believe. But you don’t seem to be able to make any kind of argument to support it. I would argue you haven't either for your point of view.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 19:23:40 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 19:23:40 GMT
We get that that is what you believe. But you don’t seem to be able to make any kind of argument to support it. I would argue you haven't either for your point of view. You are entitled to that opinion. But only one of us has actually bothered to articulate a case.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 19:31:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 19:31:44 GMT
I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive. As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules. It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him. All this happens, there's too many situations on what is racist and what is bot to live in a constant state of just accepting that you're racist. What if two black people have a different view on something, one says it's racist and the other doesn't. Well are you racist or not. Fallon got done for doing blackface back in the day. He was told it's racist by black people, tgen jamie fox said he had nothing to apologise for,which one is correct? Does the majority win or the lone voice of fox. You can say well we'd need to debate it, go ahead but i got a million other situations that need debating too. If we debate them all we wouldn't have time to be racist. Good thing i suppose.
At the end of the day, if you want to live your life like that go ahead, i just think, again, it's counter productive.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 19:51:36 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 19:51:36 GMT
Sure. I get it. You just want to stop hearing about it all the time. It feels oppressive and it makes you feel like you have to walk on eggshells. If people would just calm down, we could focus on more interesting things?
Right?
Well hey! I’m with you. I don’t need this shit. Let me just go about my day. I treat people fairly. That ought to be enough.
But there’s still that video of the police kneeling on that guy’s neck. And the video of the guy shot while jogging. The one where the girl is shot in her bedroom. The guy choked for selling cigarettes. Then there are all of the killings not on video. There are the young (or formerly young) black men rotting in prison for a drug offense that you or I would skate. There’s also probably a neighborhood pretty close to you where it ‘isn’t safe’ and the people live poor and don’t look like you or I.
I guess we just ignore all of that?
Yeah - always having to think about racism IS oppressive. But not nearly as oppressive as having to live at the effect of it. And while you might think that it is enough that you personally wish no ill to people different from yourself - isn’t your willingness to turn a blind-eye to their treatment a form of ill will?
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Jun 5, 2020 20:05:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 20:05:04 GMT
Yeah yeah davy You don't have an answer to my post, so you make unfounded assumptions why I'm taking this point of view, then bring up situations that i can't possibly argue against like police killing a black man, which you're right i can't. It is 100% wrong what the cops did.
Read my post and address the specific points.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 20:18:47 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 20:18:47 GMT
Yeah yeah davy You don't have an answer to my post, so you make unfounded assumptions why I'm taking this point of view, then bring up situations that i can't possibly argue against like police killing a black man, which you're right i can't. It is 100% wrong what the cops did. Read my post and address the specific points. Happy to go back and answer point by point (though I don’t love the interface here at this site for doing so). Meanwhile - I’m curious which assumptions of mine are unfounded. I admittedly took the liberty of illustrating a POV that seems similar to yours, but I would LOVE to know where your actual attitudes differ.
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Jun 5, 2020 20:21:07 GMT
I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive. As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules. It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him. But at some point this very behavior is dysfunctional, because it deals in pejorative terms and allows them to continue. Really no different than calling women "B's" and "Ho's" and saying you love women, your wife, girlfriend, etc., Allowing and using the architecture of dysfunction is still dysfunctional no matter how "lovingly" you may use it. One's needs/choice to use it means there's something dysfunctional underlying it. Respect is respect, it's not hidden.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 20:43:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 20:43:31 GMT
Yeah yeah davy You don't have an answer to my post, so you make unfounded assumptions why I'm taking this point of view, then bring up situations that i can't possibly argue against like police killing a black man, which you're right i can't. It is 100% wrong what the cops did. Read my post and address the specific points. Happy to go back and answer point by point (though I don’t love the interface here at this site for doing so). Meanwhile - I’m curious which assumptions of mine are unfounded. I admittedly took the liberty of illustrating a POV that seems similar to yours, but I would LOVE to know where your actual attitudes differ. Are you being serious? Your whole post makes it sound like I'm too lazy or find it annoying to try and tackle racism. I want to find a way to tackle racism as much as the next man, i just don't agree with your choice. It is as simple as that.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 20:46:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 20:46:41 GMT
I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive. As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules. It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him. But at some point this very behavior is dysfunctional, because it deals in pejorative terms and allows them to continue. Really no different than calling women "B's" and "Ho's" and saying you love women, your wife, girlfriend, etc., Allowing and using the architecture of dysfunction is still dysfunctional no matter how "lovingly" you may use it. One's needs/choice to use it means there's something dysfunctional underlying it. Respect is respect, it's not hidden. But what if, like i said, a person or group of people of a minority are ok with you using those words because you're a friend. Are you gonna lecture/tell a person of a minority to stop using their own pejorative or allowing someone to use it against them? Good luck with that.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 20:54:17 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Jun 5, 2020 20:54:17 GMT
But at some point this very behavior is dysfunctional, because it deals in pejorative terms and allows them to continue. Really no different than calling women "B's" and "Ho's" and saying you love women, your wife, girlfriend, etc., Allowing and using the architecture of dysfunction is still dysfunctional no matter how "lovingly" you may use it. One's needs/choice to use it means there's something dysfunctional underlying it. Respect is respect, it's not hidden. But what if, like i said, a person or group of people of a minority are ok with you using those words because you're a friend. Are you gonna lecture/tell a person of a minority to stop using their own pejorative or allowing someone to use it against them? Good luck with that. One on one I think is the way to go here. I would think what might begin as joking ribbing use of slurs would fall away as personal regard builds between two individuals that they might see how the terms are hurtful.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:58:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 20:58:48 GMT
But what if, like i said, a person or group of people of a minority are ok with you using those words because you're a friend. Are you gonna lecture/tell a person of a minority to stop using their own pejorative or allowing someone to use it against them? Good luck with that. One on one I think is the way to go here. I would think what might begin as joking ribbing use of slurs would fall away as personal regard builds between two individuals that they might see how the terms are hurtful. I would tend to agree, know your audience so to speak. I know women that i make jokes about but not with other women for example. The main difference is they know I'm joking and they can give it back just as good. However "know you audience" can also be misconstrued as a way to tell a racist joke amongst other racist people, so it's a fine line.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:12:19 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:12:19 GMT
Markus said:
****I think to live in a constant state "you're racist, end of" is counter productive.***
Telling that you identify your bone of contention as:
“you’re a racist”
As opposed to:
“that’s racist.”
Do you see how you start off defending the imaginary white person from the get-go? Your first concern isn’t that something legitimately racist might have been said or done - but rather that someone may have been unfairly tarnished by the very suggestion. Apparently that bothers you more than racism itself.
Markus again: ***As much as we would all like to think we know the rules to live by in terms of racism, we simply don't. Context keeps changing, relationships between people keep changing, and no one person holds all the answers because there's too many individual situations that break or challenge the rules.****
Right. Pretty much like every other aspect of our lives.
Markus again: *** It can be something like me working on a building site calling a co worker and friend a wop and he calls me a mick back, but it's done on friendly terms. It could be a black man comfortable with his white friend making stereotype jokes about him.****
We’ll return to the first example - but let’s start with that Black guy who is “comfortable” with “stereotype jokes.” I’ve been a version of that guy. In my case, I’ve let people make Jewish jokes in my presence. But let me tell you a little secret: No matter how comfortable your black friend is with you, he’s participating in that because he thinks he has to to put you at ease. He knows that his blackness puts a potential gulf between you, and he wants you to like him so much that he’s acknowledging the elephant in the room. Can you imagine always feeling like you had to do that. So much so that you are willing to absorb harmful stereotypes in order to gain that acceptance? I can guarantee you one thing about that friend. He’d MUCH rather not have all those elephants in that room. No matter how much he seems to enjoy the repartee, he’d prefer to just be your friend (as opposed to your comfortable-with stereotypes Black friend).
Similarly - when you and your Italian friend do that mick/wop thing, you are poking at the scab of racism itself. You are essentially acknowledging your shared whiteness and making a little bit of fun at the touchiness of others who don’t just as easily allow epithets to roll off their back. In short / you are saying, “We got over it. Why can’t they?” Nudge nudge, wink wink.
More Markus: ****What if two black people have a different view on something, one says it's racist and the other doesn't. Well are you racist or not. ****
Again - look how you go to “are you racist?” as opposed to “is it racist?”
The answer depends on the content of their argument. But Black people disagree and have their own perspectives, just like everyone else. Even on racism. The smart thing would be to try and respect both perspectives.
Markus:
****Fallon got done for doing blackface back in the day. He was told it's racist by black people, tgen jamie fox said he had nothing to apologise for,which one is correct? Does the majority win or the lone voice of fox. ***
It isn’t a zero-sum game where someone wins and someone loses. We are simply trying to learn how to respect each other.
In that specific case, I think Fallon walked away with the conviction that he wouldn’t want to ever do that again, and Fox allowed him to learn from his mistake without taking on a lot of excess retroactive shame. Seems to me like everybody won.
Markus: ****You can say well we'd need to debate it, go ahead but i got a million other situations that need debating too. If we debate them all we wouldn't have time to be racist. Good thing i suppose.****
How we treat each other in this world seems intrinsically worth the time to me. Maybe you are busy doing more important things - like hanging out on a message board.
Markus: ****At the end of the day, if you want to live your life like that go ahead, i just think, again, it's counter productive.****
Right. Because you are fine with how things are. It benefits you.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:16:47 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:16:47 GMT
Happy to go back and answer point by point (though I don’t love the interface here at this site for doing so). Meanwhile - I’m curious which assumptions of mine are unfounded. I admittedly took the liberty of illustrating a POV that seems similar to yours, but I would LOVE to know where your actual attitudes differ. Are you being serious? Your whole post makes it sound like I'm too lazy or find it annoying to try and tackle racism. I want to find a way to tackle racism as much as the next man, i just don't agree with your choice. It is as simple as that. br] Your arguments are all to the contrary. Apparently actively discussing the issue is “counter-productive. You want to find a way to “tackle racism” the way OJ is searching for the real killer.
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racism
Jun 5, 2020 21:22:46 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jun 5, 2020 21:22:46 GMT
But at some point this very behavior is dysfunctional, because it deals in pejorative terms and allows them to continue. Really no different than calling women "B's" and "Ho's" and saying you love women, your wife, girlfriend, etc., Allowing and using the architecture of dysfunction is still dysfunctional no matter how "lovingly" you may use it. One's needs/choice to use it means there's something dysfunctional underlying it. Respect is respect, it's not hidden. But what if, like i said, a person or group of people of a minority are ok with you using those words because you're a friend. Are you gonna lecture/tell a person of a minority to stop using their own pejorative or allowing someone to use it against them? Good luck with that. Lecture them? No. But I would stop using that language. If I were close enough, I might also at some point say, “Hey - you don’t have to do that.” Or better yet, ask them if they feel they have to. Might start an interesting conversation.
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