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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 12:03:44 GMT
But the point is you shouldn't be spying on your neighbours at all, unless you have bloody good reason to do so.
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Mar 31, 2020 12:05:27 GMT
But the point is you shouldn't be spying on your neighbours at all, unless you have bloody good reason to do so. But if you walked past a pub that was busy on a recent night, would you want to call the police?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 12:30:17 GMT
It's the trade of civil liberties for medical safety isnt it. Plus Asian democracies are generally more aligned with authoritarian impulses than European ones. But after this, I suspect that we will have more of a stringent attitude to it than before. Personally I'm not comfortable expressing big theories on Asian democracies, or whatever, because it's probably a bit more complicated than a few words can express. However I think it's interesting how South Korea developed a technocratic solution based on a past experience. But elsewhere people's attitudes to institutions and governments aren't very positive. That, I suppose, is a very complex problem.
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Post by tory on Mar 31, 2020 12:47:33 GMT
Well, yes, South Korea, Singapore and Japan have had much more experience in recent years with outbreaks of disease. That has distilled down into behaviour amongst citizens, i.e wearing masks, social distancing and general attitude towards sanitation.
They were more prepared this time precisely because they had experience of them in previous decades. I would argue also that Asian societies do have, to a certain extent, more acceptance of "big" government than European ones. It is a big generalization for sure, but an observation that I think is born out by the evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 13:44:58 GMT
We are still being very lax compared with most countries. A £60 fine is nowt.
I WOULD report a lock in to the police. Not about moral lording but broken glass theory. If enough people think it's acceptable, more will. Which will in turn lead to stronger state controls. We need to self police and take responsibility.
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Post by tory on Mar 31, 2020 13:52:26 GMT
But you could just knock on the door and say "lads, probably not a good idea" instead. That's self-policing, not reporting it to the Police.
The problem we have in Britain is that the Police, who have removed themselves from the traditional patrolling where they understood the rhythms and nuances of a local community, are just now prosecutors of state legislation. Many forces are incapable of "policing" - as evinced by that dreadful Derbyshire Police thing last weekend with the Peak District.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 14:09:51 GMT
To be honest I think there is a case for reporting something like that and let's be honest the type of blokes who would go out of the way to flout these guidelines so brazenly are probably not going to be very amenable to a polite censure of what they're doing. I do agree with your wider point though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 14:15:10 GMT
It would depend on the situation. There's some pubs here I'd avoid at the best of times.
I agree that some forces are going overboard. Using drones to film people in parks who aren't breaking any distancing guidelines isn't remotely helpful.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 31, 2020 15:14:23 GMT
The drone thing is actually kinda scary. Police spying and shaming people.
The pub thing is a bit twitchy curtainsey. I wouldn't do it myself. Phoning the police might make them go home but they've already been mingling. Teach 'em a lesson? Well if they aren't obliging now..
I would turn a blind eye and probably call them cunts.
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Apr 1, 2020 0:11:27 GMT
What's going to happen when they lift these restrictions and everyone wants to go on holiday at the same time? 'cos it'll happen!
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Post by Charlie O. on Apr 1, 2020 0:33:13 GMT
Don't you think it's more likely that everyone will want to go back to work at the same time?
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Apr 1, 2020 0:36:13 GMT
Yes, of course. But still - there'll be rescheduled flights, refunds - an enormous backlog.
I imagine there'll be pressure to wait until September to lift travel restrictions because that's when the schools are back and major destinations are quieter. It'll still be very difficult to book flights and hotels, I think.
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Post by tory on Apr 1, 2020 8:43:46 GMT
We had a place in Majorca booked but hadn't paid for flights.
The issue I think for places like Italy and Spain is that they're going to be utterly crippled without tourism.
Unless the EU does something very tangible to help them, I reckon it'll be the end of Italy's participation in the project.
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Post by Playground LEVINE on Apr 1, 2020 8:54:41 GMT
We had a place in Majorca booked but hadn't paid for flights. The issue I think for places like Italy and Spain is that they're going to be utterly crippled without tourism. Unless the EU does something very tangible to help them, I reckon it'll be the end of Italy's participation in the project. I feel that you actually want that to happen, T. You've mentioned it a couple of times already. Italy and Spain benefit hugely from tourism, of course, and I guess the UK is their biggest European net contributor. What interests me is how much pressure - if any - they can put on our government to lift travel restrictions, which would be very much in their interests. If these countries have a boom summer then it could repair some of the economic damage and businesses could get back on their feet. It's a very tricky kind of compromise but as commercial interests invariably trump anything else... Having said that, the kind of numbers I imagine that would want to (or have already planned to) visit Florence, Venice, and the Spanish coastal resorts over summer just wouldn't be manageable. So how would limits be introduced?
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Post by tory on Apr 1, 2020 12:52:41 GMT
No idea really. It's all up in the air, but I'd say that without massive parachuted cash from Germany, which will come with stipends, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece are totally fucked unless restrictions are withdrawn in time for the summer.
I don't want the EU to end - but I think that it was hugely telling that countries reverted to borders when this crisis emerged. That tells you that, ultimately, the European 'identity' is far more fragile than it appears. The Eurozone is financially lethargic and not particularly agile.
The damage, in terms of perceptions, is difficult to gauge. Chinese and Russian aid (whilst totally peripheral) was first before the EU. People in Italy are already totally fucked off and they won't be happy at the apparent lack of help from the EU (as an organisation).
Personally, even without this crisis, I suspected that the EU would be slimmed down to a core rump in time anyway - of France, Germany & Benelux.
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