Deleted
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Punk
Aug 5, 2020 20:06:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 20:06:25 GMT
They both had anger but (imo) only one has skill.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 15:25:58 GMT
Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 6, 2020 15:25:58 GMT
They both had anger but (imo) only one has skill. Define skill? Hardcore punk hardly demands any skill at all. Just a knowledge of a few power chords. NY punk was a little different. Besides the Ramones, who may have been more skilled than one thinks, you had a number of fairly skilled musicians, or ones who became skilled - Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, Mink DeVille, Richard Hell/Voidoids, Johnny Thunders. I think the temptation to call people unskilled just because they don't play traditional musical instruments, is a bit of a fallacy. I get it from a musician's or traditional standpoint, but some of the producers generated out of hip hop, could probably run rings around rock producers. They're akin to reggae producers - Lee Perry, Leslie Kong, Winston Riley - very creative in their own rights.
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Deleted
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 15:34:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 15:34:22 GMT
Oh I'd say the scene was generally working class here from what I've heard and seen. The local stuff went the Oi! route pretty quickly (Toy Dolls, Red Alert etc) or anarcho (Upstarts). It probably fed into 80s rave culture in the North East most directly. Wouldn't call Angelic Upstarts Anarcho Punk. They were more in that Sham 69 line of Street punk.
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Deleted
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 15:35:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 15:35:15 GMT
They both had anger but (imo) only one has skill. Define skill? Hardcore punk hardly demands any skill at all. Just a knowledge of a few power chords. NY punk was a little different. Besides the Ramones, who may have been more skilled than one thinks, you had a number of fairly skilled musicians, or ones who became skilled - Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, Mink DeVille, Richard Hell/Voidoids, Johnny Thunders. I think the temptation to call people unskilled just because they don't play traditional musical instruments, is a bit of a fallacy. I get it from a musician's or traditional standpoint, but some of the producers generated out of hip hop, could probably run rings around rock producers. They're akin to reggae producers - Lee Perry, Leslie Kong, Winston Riley - very creative in their own rights. Spot on.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 15:49:22 GMT
Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 6, 2020 15:49:22 GMT
Define skill? Hardcore punk hardly demands any skill at all. Just a knowledge of a few power chords. NY punk was a little different. Besides the Ramones, who may have been more skilled than one thinks, you had a number of fairly skilled musicians, or ones who became skilled - Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, Mink DeVille, Richard Hell/Voidoids, Johnny Thunders. I think the temptation to call people unskilled just because they don't play traditional musical instruments, is a bit of a fallacy. I get it from a musician's or traditional standpoint, but some of the producers generated out of hip hop, could probably run rings around rock producers. They're akin to reggae producers - Lee Perry, Leslie Kong, Winston Riley - very creative in their own rights. Spot on. And rapping is not as easy as one thinks. I like to use this song as a good example of marriage between artist and producer. The beat and the rapper are almost racing each other in a race, feeling each other out and using each other for inspiration in mutual insistence and urgency. Ice Cube's phrasing has always been great - listen for the pauses and emphasis in the delivery. The producer was DJ Pooh, who's done albums for LL Cool J, Tupac and Del the Funkee Homosapien. He inserts some great stuff and reflects the anger of the rapper's lyrics, perfectly.
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Deleted
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 17:23:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 17:23:20 GMT
Punk, in all it's guises, has created more shit bands than any other genre in IMH unresearched O. SUM41? fuck me.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 17:34:23 GMT
Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Aug 6, 2020 17:34:23 GMT
Yeah, there's like this central core of about seven very fine punk bands and then about eighteen million absolutely ROTTEN lazy imitato clown arseholes who take the bad, can't manage the good, and damage the brand forever.
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Aug 6, 2020 18:00:34 GMT
Has anyone watched the clip? Isn't John Peel a sweetie? English punk is all about a very short moment in time, less than a year, really. I'm pretty sure that I'm the only halfway regular poster here who lived through it as an adult music fan. It's a pity the thread got derailed, because there's a lot to say about how punk swept through UK culture like a wildfire creating fertile ground for all kinds of new creativity – not just in music – that had nothing to do with copying the sound of early punk bands. What happened in America is comletely irrelevant to all this. British punk was an entirely local and short-lived phenomenon that soon mutated into post-punk, indie, goth, whatever it was the Smiths were doing, industrial, and electronics and various other forms/genres, while hip-hop has become a generic term, rather like R&B. Apples and oranges.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 18:06:03 GMT
Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Aug 6, 2020 18:06:03 GMT
I did watch the clip, and yes, Peel was great. He didn't rise to the bait which I think was fed to him on a handful of occasions by that old-school BBC dude. A wise man, and absolutely perfectly placed to talk about this subject.
And yes, there are at least two different discussions we can have here. Or, rather, we're having at least two different discussions.
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Deleted
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 18:32:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 18:32:23 GMT
Has anyone watched the clip? Isn't John Peel a sweetie? English punk is all about a very short moment in time, less than a year, really. I'm pretty sure that I'm the only halfway regular poster here who lived through it as an adult music fan. It's a pity the thread got derailed, because there's a lot to say about how punk swept through UK culture like a wildfire creating fertile ground for all kinds of new creativity – not just in music – that had nothing to do with copying the sound of early punk bands. What happened in America is comletely irrelevant to all this. British punk was an entirely local and short-lived phenomenon that soon mutated into post-punk, indie, goth, whatever it was the Smiths were doing, industrial, and electronics and various other forms/genres, while hip-hop has become a generic term, rather like R&B. Apples and oranges. Good post. Punk had an enduring cultural legacy in the Uk that went way beyond the music, indeed I'd go as far as to say the music was the least interesting thing about it.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 18:48:18 GMT
Post by tory on Aug 6, 2020 18:48:18 GMT
Punk had a powerful effect on counter-culture in the UK - I'd argue that it whisked it away from the middle class hippies of the late 60's, or maybe at least allowed working-class people a bite of the apple. As Ray says, by '76 and early '77 it's in people like Throbbing Gristle that punk's energising impact was far more profound on a musical level.
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Deleted
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 19:03:36 GMT
rayge likes this
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 19:03:36 GMT
I've seen that Brass Tracks documentary before and it's an absolutely fascinating and deeply insightful time capsule. It should be mandatory viewing for anyone trying to understand why punk happened.
The mistake that often gets made, in my view, is to try and explain punk in a purely musical context i.e. " it was a reaction against prog", " it was a reaction against super groups" etc. What it actually was was a reaction against an ossified and restrictive Britain. It was a cultural phenomenon. It's all there in the clip - the stilted, condescending presenter, the self important councillor making rules for how people should live. It's even there in the colour scheme which seems to run from brown to beige. The crappy suits of the authority figures. It looks like ancient history now, like the sixties never happened, and that Britain had somehow got stuck permanently in the early fifties - a shabby, down at heel world where you were expected to know your place. It's one of the best documents you can find of why punk had to happen.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 19:20:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 19:20:47 GMT
Punk gets too much musical credit when it comes to influence, i've said this on BCB and it didn't go down too well. Stripping music down, DIY attitude to music, act a bit of a dick, people make it sound like punk was the first to do it. Only punk, the same thing never happened in any other genre of music. I've heard people try to associate 'punk' to other forms of music if someone does try that. "Yeah they stripped down classical music to the basics and they're a bit arrogant, they made classical music punk!!" fuck off.
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 19:25:18 GMT
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Aug 6, 2020 19:25:18 GMT
Has anyone watched the clip? Yes. And the biggest takeaway for me was discovering this guy:
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Punk
Aug 6, 2020 19:36:35 GMT
Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Aug 6, 2020 19:36:35 GMT
He pops up now and again in punk documentaries on cheapo UK TV channels as 'the voice of the Establishment'
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