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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:38:08 GMT
the fact that in the early/mid 80s the general temperature in many areas had not necessarily changed so much from, say, 1972, and... Post-punk, post 70s feminism. I'd say a lot had changed since 1972.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 7, 2020 21:39:30 GMT
In Europe
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 21:42:18 GMT
I could get behind this 'they're only playing roles' malarkey if we were talking about great writers. We're not. We're talking about rock stars with a bunch of 'O' levels who screwed around. I don’t think it is formal as all that. I’m not saying, ‘The Stones were always using the rhetorical device of the untrustworthy narrator’. I’m saying, ‘The Stones liked taking the piss out of society - and thus most of what they wrote carried the subtext that all of the roles humans play are kind of bullshit’. So you don't think Jagger singing 'Stupid Girl' might have been directed at a girl he thought was stupid? You don't get the sense that 'Under My Thumb' was written from direct experience?
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loveless
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Post by loveless on Dec 7, 2020 21:47:54 GMT
I don’t think it is formal as all that. I’m not saying, ‘The Stones were always using the rhetorical device of the untrustworthy narrator’. I’m saying, ‘The Stones liked taking the piss out of society - and thus most of what they wrote carried the subtext that all of the roles humans play are kind of bullshit’. So you don't think Jagger singing 'Stupid Girl' might have been directed at a girl he thought was stupid? You don't get the sense that 'Under My Thumb' was written from direct experience? Under my Thumb seems like an adolescent revenge fantasy. Like 96 Tears.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:48:09 GMT
Most of the well known feminists were American.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 7, 2020 21:49:13 GMT
I wasn't being serious, G.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:50:14 GMT
So you don't think Jagger singing 'Stupid Girl' might have been directed at a girl he thought was stupid? You don't get the sense that 'Under My Thumb' was written from direct experience? Under my Thumb seems like an adolescent revenge fantasy. Like 96 Tears. It's all adolescent. They thought this stuff was cool.
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loveless
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Post by loveless on Dec 7, 2020 21:51:05 GMT
the fact that in the early/mid 80s the general temperature in many areas had not necessarily changed so much from, say, 1972, and... Post-punk, post 70s feminism. I'd say a lot had changed since 1972. You can say it, and I take your meaning, but... as is relevant to this conversation/the artists in question/even the mid 80s audience for a group like the Rolling Stones...I guess - how much do we think "a lot had changed" for someone like, say, Jagger, Jimmy Page, or Gene Simmons?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:53:49 GMT
Post-punk, post 70s feminism. I'd say a lot had changed since 1972. You can say it, and I take your meaning, but... as is relevant to this conversation/the artists in question/even the mid 80s audience for a group like the Rolling Stones...I guess - how much do we think "a lot had changed" for someone like, say, Jagger, Jimmy Page, or Gene Simmons? I can imagine, say, Townsend thinking about this stuff, but not Jagger. As I said I think he's pretty cynical.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 7, 2020 21:55:01 GMT
I don’t think it is formal as all that. I’m not saying, ‘The Stones were always using the rhetorical device of the untrustworthy narrator’. I’m saying, ‘The Stones liked taking the piss out of society - and thus most of what they wrote carried the subtext that all of the roles humans play are kind of bullshit’. So you don't think Jagger singing 'Stupid Girl' might have been directed at a girl he thought was stupid? You don't get the sense that 'Under My Thumb' was written from direct experience? I have no idea. But I doubt that it was all a straight line for him. The opening line of Stupid Girl is, “I'm not talking about the kind of clothes she wears” - so right off he’s negotiating the difference between this girl and the image he imagines that we have of girls. Meanwhile Under My Thumb sets us up with a girl who “once pushed me ‘round” - which is already a switch of presumed gender roles. I mean, I’m sure that events in his life had influence too. But his approach was always to imagine more possibilities of how humans could be to each other than you’d find on a Pat Boone record.
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Post by loveless on Dec 7, 2020 22:08:41 GMT
The one I have most difficulty with is Backstreet Girl because it's a ballad and the lyrics are more upfront and harder to ignore. There's just a nastiness to it, which is a shame because it's a lovely melody.
I dunno. I love Backstreet Girl. It doesn’t bother me at all. I guess the question I would ask is: What do you think about the way the guy in that song is being presented? Maybe it is a bit of a Rorschach test, but I’ve always heard the song as a condemnation of him. Is a portrait of misogyny the same as misogyny itself? There's a lot that colors "Backstreet Girl" for me - and I mean, the music/arrangement is a huge part of it. You picture these people living in some bygone era/time, possibly horse drawn carriages...certainly not the same era as "on our first trip", right? Similarly, "Play With Fire". The way the Stepney/Knightsbridge business interacts with the baroque element (harpsichords). I would argue that these people were, in some very internal/intuitive sense, quite sophisticated as artists. There's always this synergy of lyrics/treatment ("As Tears Go By") that suggests that they were always (to whatever extent) "painting a picture". (Dear Lord, Keef is STILL portraying "Keef") They may or may not have been huge fucking pigs, but...I think their work has a bit more depth than consensus would have it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 22:43:02 GMT
I dunno. I love Backstreet Girl. It doesn’t bother me at all. I guess the question I would ask is: What do you think about the way the guy in that song is being presented? Maybe it is a bit of a Rorschach test, but I’ve always heard the song as a condemnation of him. Is a portrait of misogyny the same as misogyny itself? There's a lot that colors "Backstreet Girl" for me - and I mean, the music/arrangement is a huge part of it. You picture these people living in some bygone era/time, possibly horse drawn carriages...certainly not the same era as "on our first trip", right? Similarly, "Play With Fire". The way the Stepney/Knightsbridge business interacts with the baroque element (harpsichords). I would argue that these people were, in some very internal/intuitive sense, quite sophisticated as artists. There's always this synergy of lyrics/treatment ("As Tears Go By") that suggests that they were always (to whatever extent) "painting a picture". (Dear Lord, Keef is STILL portraying "Keef") They may or may not have been huge fucking pigs, but...I think their work has a bit more depth than consensus would have it. All true..but somewhat irrelevent to the charge I think.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 22:45:39 GMT
I think what I'm getting from this thread is if you really like an artist, you find it easy to turn a blind eye or project a favourable filter on what they do. All of which is perfectly understandable.
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Post by cousinlou on Dec 7, 2020 22:48:32 GMT
Language eh?
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 7, 2020 22:51:11 GMT
I think what I'm getting from this thread is if you really like an artist, you find it easy to turn a blind eye or project a favourable filter on what they do. All of which is perfectly understandable. 🙄 Or perhaps you really like the artist BECAUSE you perceive that kind of depth in their work.
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