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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 22:52:51 GMT
Oh for Mick's sake
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loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
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Post by loveless on Dec 7, 2020 23:00:38 GMT
All true..but somewhat irrelevent to the charge I think. I don't think it is. I think this song IN PARTICULAR became the source of a (recurring) "nuance vs. no nuance" headbutting, regarding authorial intent and the presence of actual layers in creative works. The Stones are whatever the fuck they are, but...I have far less issue with the willingness to consider that a young Jagger MIGHT POSSIBLY be narrating a tale of a married lord of the gentry (complete with mistress) than I do with the "NO HE ISN'T!!" absolutism of the opposing view.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 23:03:13 GMT
I think what I'm getting from this thread is if you really like an artist, you find it easy to turn a blind eye or project a favourable filter on what they do. All of which is perfectly understandable. 🙄 Or perhaps you really like the artist BECAUSE you perceive that kind of depth in their work. They wrote misogynist lyrics, they weren't the only ones of course and the "but that was the times" argument does provide some extenuating circumstances, but the idea that this was some sophisticated satire or multi-levelled attempt to deconstruct male attitudes..I find that totally specious I have to say.
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 23:04:31 GMT
Zep, Stones, Bowie, Lennon, Zappa, Neil - any major 60s/70s male stars who DIDN'T demonstrate misogyny on occasion? Dylan, Hendrix... Lou, Ozzy...
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Sneelock
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Ice Cream by night
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Post by Sneelock on Dec 7, 2020 23:08:38 GMT
...Herb Albert, Paul Williams, the guy who wrote those "Burger King" jingles...
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Sneelock
god
Ice Cream by night
Posts: 9,087
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Post by Sneelock on Dec 7, 2020 23:10:10 GMT
I'm not going to be putting any women down any more than I'm going to be waiting for my man with 26 dollars in my hand. I won't be setting myself on fire with Kerosene and I've absolutely no intention of Rocking the Casbah.
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rayge
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hopeful
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Post by rayge on Dec 7, 2020 23:16:52 GMT
Good dog.
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~ / % ? *
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disambiguating goat herder
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Dec 7, 2020 23:19:59 GMT
I think what I'm getting from this thread is if you really like an artist, you find it easy to turn a blind eye or project a favourable filter on what they do. All of which is perfectly understandable. ..and/or some misogyny was of its time, but then moving on, who seemed to stick with it and seemed to be a little too mean spirited about it?
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 8, 2020 0:36:18 GMT
🙄 Or perhaps you really like the artist BECAUSE you perceive that kind of depth in their work. They wrote misogynist lyrics, they weren't the only ones of course and the "but that was the times" argument does provide some extenuating circumstances, but the idea that this was some sophisticated satire or multi-levelled attempt to deconstruct male attitudes..I find that totally specious I have to say. That’s not exactly what is being argued here... I think of Jagger as a guy who likes to play dress-up. His instinct seems to be to try on different clothes, different hats, different attitudes, imagine he’s in different eras. I don’t think he’s always hyper-aware of being satirical per se. But he kind of thinks of most conventions as bullshit, so satire is never far behind. Why does a guy write songs like Lady Jane or Brown Sugar? Why imagine yourself as a pre-modernity social climber or a slave owner? At some level, you have to presume that something about those historical situations interested him and he reacted by imagining what it would have been like to have been a part of them. Here’s the thing: I don’t think this instinct only applied to historical time travel. I think Jagger liked to imagine other perspectives to all sorts of different kinds of human interactions. He was interested in other people. He likes trying to inhabit their thoughts through songwriting and performance. That probably included some shit he observed that he didn’t like - and sure... he likely also held some shitty attitudes of his own. But I don’t get the feeling that he used songs to evangelize his own beliefs NEARLY as often as he used them to paint a portrait of someone else’s. Maybe that’s just how I see him. But there aren’t that many preachy here-is-how-I-see-the-world songs as there are devils being offered sympathy.
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Post by Charlie O. on Dec 8, 2020 1:42:35 GMT
I agree with davey, surprise surprise.
And speaking of surprises, I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone on this thread failed to notice that Jagger was among the most sophisticated lyricists of the sixties.
Was "Under My Thumb" autobiographical? Who was he writing about - Chrissie Shrimpton? Did she push poor Mick around?
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Dec 8, 2020 2:21:44 GMT
I generally have two rules about assumptions about songwriting:
1) I assume, unless told otherwise by the writer, or am privy to their personal life, that lyrics are NOT autobiographical. It's not assumed of novelists, poets, directors, painters, etc. etc., why should songs be different?
2) Even if it is, it should not be used as a limitation as far as what to write about. Having a sexist or misogynist impulse, and exploring the nature of it in song, does not make the writer a sexist or misogynist. It's all about how it's expressed/handled.
I don't know if there's any great insight/artistry in the lyrics of, say, "Under My Thumb," but I can sure think of many songs that treat their intended target with more sensitivity and compassion that are not as good.
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loveless
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Bringing ballet to the masses. Sticking to the funk.
Posts: 3,001
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Post by loveless on Dec 8, 2020 2:30:30 GMT
And speaking of surprises, I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone on this thread failed to notice that Jagger was among the most sophisticated lyricists of the sixties. This bears highlighting because, yes - of course, absofuckinglutely. But also - it isn't necessarily something that gets said anywhere near as widely as it should. Which is odd. I mean, how could that level of salient poetic expressiveness (and we're talking about a band who have performed for twenty gazillion people at this point, and received ten times as many radio plays as THAT) NOT be a sort of prominent feature of their rep?
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
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Post by toomanyhatz on Dec 8, 2020 2:41:14 GMT
Part of the problem might be the fact that it more-or-less disappeared starting sometime in the 70s, but...yeah.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 8, 2020 2:51:24 GMT
And speaking of surprises, I'm absolutely gobsmacked that anyone on this thread failed to notice that Jagger was among the most sophisticated lyricists of the sixties. This bears highlighting because, yes - of course, absofuckinglutely. But also - it isn't necessarily something that gets said anywhere near as widely as it should. Which is odd. I mean, how could that level of salient poetic expressiveness (and we're talking about a band who have performed for twenty gazillion people at this point, and received ten times as many radio plays as THAT) NOT be a sort of prominent feature of their rep? I think some rock fans mistrust “writers”. They like to think of The Stones as primitives. There were some comments to that effect even on this thread. But of course, Jagger and Richards are pretty sophisticated guys, and their lyrics are as great as anyone’s.
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 8, 2020 3:11:57 GMT
I'm not talking about the kind of clothes she wears Look at that stupid girl I'm not talking about the way she combs her hair Look at that stupid girl The way she powders her nose Her vanity shows and it shows She's the worst thing in this world Well, look at that stupid girl I'm not talking about the way she digs for gold Look at that stupid girl Well, I'm talking about the way she grabs and holds Look at that stupid girl The way she talks about someone else That she don't even know herself She's the sickest thing in this world Well, look at that stupid girl Well, I'm sick and tired And I really have my doubts I've tried and tried But it never really works out Like a lady in waiting to a virgin queen Look at that stupid girl She bitches 'bout things that she's never seen Look at that stupid girl It doesn't matter if she dyes her hair Or the color of the shoes she wears She's the worst thing in this world Well, look at that stupid girl Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up Shut up, shut up, shut up Like a lady in waiting to a virgin queen Look at that stupid girl She bitches 'bout things that she's never seen Look at that stupid girl She purrs like a pussycat Then she turns 'round and hisses back She's the sickest thing in this world Look at that stupid girl
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