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Post by ~ / % ? * on Dec 8, 2020 16:19:47 GMT
The inaugural run of the "Preludin Mick Pass": GG Allin, Ted Nugent, Death In June, Skrewdriver, etc., here we come.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 8, 2020 16:21:49 GMT
Can I add that Allen isn't actually guilty of anything, unlike Polanski who fessed up then fled like a coward.
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Post by DarknessFish on Dec 8, 2020 16:23:33 GMT
I'm happy to defend Death in June. Dougie P's a tool, but made some great music. And who here doesn't love a bit of Burzum?
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Dec 8, 2020 16:25:00 GMT
It seems Jagger is being given a free pass here because he's "sophisticated" and the lyrics are imaginative exercises rather than autobiography ( an odd distinction, but anyway). I don't want him hung from the city walls or deleted from rock history, I can enjoy these records as much as anyone as I've already said. But to point out that there was an undercurrent of misogyny in some Stones lyrics that peddled some unsavoury sexist attitudes and that they stood out at times even amongst their peers for this is not too condemn them absolutely, neither does it deny their musical or lyrical ability and intelligence (an odd thing to have to state, but that point keeps being made for some reason). It just means what it is, that they seemed to take more relish in these attitudes than many of their peers. How much this should detract from their standing is a difficult questiion, but I do think it is a valid charge to level against them. I've not really added any new points there so we're beginning to go round in circles, so I'll leave it there. Absolutely. I really struggle now with some of the Stones songs from this period, more so than with any of the other big groups from the '60s. The sheer nastiness of "Stupid Girl," for example, is a really tough listen, and I can't remember the last time I made it all the way through the song. But... I take it on a song-by-song basis. I still listen to the Stones a good deal, but certain songs (e.g., "Stupid Girl," I'm going to skip.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 16:27:38 GMT
But to point out that there was an undercurrent of misogyny in some Stones lyrics that peddled some unsavoury sexist attitudes and that they stood out at times even amongst their peers for this is not too condemn them absolutely I don’t want to pass this by without some form of acknowledgment. I’m just not sure what else we’re supposed to do with it. I think it is fine to acknowledge that some of their lyrics both reflected and reinforced negative ideas about women. But where the line between Jagger’s artistic instincts and his actual feelings on women begin and end just isn’t something I’m going to take a hard stand on. I doubt he even fully understands it. So what more is there to say? Old songs. Outdated attitudes. File them away under: ‘interesting cultural artifacts’ and then move on. Which is all I'm saying really. I didn't comment on Jagger's actual feelings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 16:29:39 GMT
I'm happy to defend Death in June. Dougie P's a tool, but made some great music. And who here doesn't love a bit of Burzum? I think they're a bit dodgy personally, although a mate of mine plays with them.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 8, 2020 16:31:19 GMT
I don’t want to pass this by without some form of acknowledgment. I’m just not sure what else we’re supposed to do with it. I think it is fine to acknowledge that some of their lyrics both reflected and reinforced negative ideas about women. But where the line between Jagger’s artistic instincts and his actual feelings on women begin and end just isn’t something I’m going to take a hard stand on. I doubt he even fully understands it. So what more is there to say? Old songs. Outdated attitudes. File them away under: ‘interesting cultural artifacts’ and then move on. Which is all I'm saying really. I didn't comment on Jagger's actual feelings. You didn’t. Others did.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 8, 2020 16:32:55 GMT
I think he's got a point there, for a change ✌️
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 8, 2020 16:35:03 GMT
I wanted to acknowledge this point about Jagger's lyrics that a couple of you made earlier and how it's rarely even mentioned - YES, he was great, at his best. '19th Nervous Breakdown' is a fun shaggy-dog story that beats even Dylan at his own most playful game, and 'Satisfaction' is a hell of an achievement - the sneer throughout, the way it all works with the beat ('how white. my. shirts. can be').
I could even get behind this 'playing a role' line too, for some of his songs, maybe the aforementioned '19th'. But there are just too many of those 'dumb chick' songs for me to believe that was just some kind of third-person narrative he was hiding behind.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Dec 8, 2020 16:39:53 GMT
Can I add that Allen isn't actually guilty of anything, unlike Polanski who fessed up then fled like a coward. He hasn't been found guilty of a crime in a court of law, true. But I'd say a 56 year-old guy starting a relationship with a high school student to whom he's been a stepfather-figure since she was eight is a pretty big moral transgression. And that's not even saying anything about Dylan Farrow's accusations, which - if true (and her brother believes they are) - are horrific.
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loveless
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Post by loveless on Dec 8, 2020 16:47:39 GMT
I wanted to acknowledge this point about Jagger's lyrics that a couple of you made earlier and how it's rarely even mentioned - YES, he was great, at his best. '19th Nervous Breakdown' is a fun shaggy-dog story that beats even Dylan at his own most playful game, and 'Satisfaction' is a hell of an achievement - the sneer throughout, the way it all works with the beat ('how white. my. shirts. can be'). I'm thankful to see this particular point not getting swept under the rug. It's a bone that I'm probably not done gnawing on (thread topic be damned).
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 8, 2020 16:52:06 GMT
There was an article that somebody posted on BCB once about Allen that was very good. I have no idea how to find it but it cleared up a lot of the misconceptions about that relationship. Allen wasn't a "stepfather" in any real sense other than in name. They have had a long, committed relationship too so good luck to them. Sometimes love grows in funny places.
What about Moses Farrow's pov? Hasn't he been supportive of Allen (and very critical of Mia who he has claimed is an abuser)? I think there is enough doubt and contradictory stories in that whole messy affair to cast doubt on whether Allen did that. Truthfully I think Mia Farrow is a real piece of work.
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nolamike
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Post by nolamike on Dec 8, 2020 16:56:11 GMT
But we are not talking about shopping and sunset, we are talking about a guy who feels hurt and feels it is okay to kill his girlfriend. The song is not in a vacuum it is built upon a huge body of rock/pop songs about men being aggrieved at women for hurting them (not just the blues tradition). The women have done the man wrong and she must pay. It plays into larger societal views of women and their rights and roles, some of which have not changed that much from the 50s60s70s, etc., and it is not hard to see it played out everyday in the news of women: mothers, sisters, grandmothers, young, old, etc., killed by men who feel aggrieved. One can put their head in the sand, minimize, etc., but societal norms are reflected and reinforced overtly and subliminally in what is allowed/tolerated in culture. *Tangent Warning* Jumping back to the "Hey Joe" talk from page one, it's not really blues tradition behind the song, it's just an updated murder ballad, which as a song form, goes back hundreds of years to British folk traditions. Hey Joe traces roots directly back to "Little Sadie". Folk recordings from the '20s and '30s are filled with dead women. Occasionally you had one where the woman kills the man, or a man kills another man, but 90% or more of them involve a man killing a woman. Here's a phenomenal song written in response to all of them, albeit decades later:
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 8, 2020 17:13:08 GMT
But we are not talking about shopping and sunset, we are talking about a guy who feels hurt and feels it is okay to kill his girlfriend. The song is not in a vacuum it is built upon a huge body of rock/pop songs about men being aggrieved at women for hurting them (not just the blues tradition). The women have done the man wrong and she must pay. It plays into larger societal views of women and their rights and roles, some of which have not changed that much from the 50s60s70s, etc., and it is not hard to see it played out everyday in the news of women: mothers, sisters, grandmothers, young, old, etc., killed by men who feel aggrieved. One can put their head in the sand, minimize, etc., but societal norms are reflected and reinforced overtly and subliminally in what is allowed/tolerated in culture. *Tangent Warning* Jumping back to the "Hey Joe" talk from page one, it's not really blues tradition behind the song, it's just an updated murder ballad, which as a song form, goes back hundreds of years to British folk traditions. Hey Joe traces roots directly back to "Little Sadie". Folk recordings from the '20s and '30s are filled with dead women. Occasionally you had one where the woman kills the man, or a man kills another man, but 90% or more of them involve a man killing a woman. Here's a phenomenal song written in response to all of them, albeit decades later: I guess the overarching question is: Do songs need to be admirable? If you turn on your tv, there are all sorts of movies about murders, or shows with ever kind of misogyny on right now. If you go to the book store, there are crime novels and all sorts of exploitation you can buy. So is there something intrinsically different about music that requires a more idealistic view of the world?
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 8, 2020 17:15:34 GMT
Singers often stand up and sing the song they wrote. You can take potshots at them. Not the same thing with films at all.
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