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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jul 27, 2023 18:17:31 GMT
I think it's all part of a wider trend and pattern where drugs have become so normalised that the idea of changing this almost seems an old fashioned idea and an impossibility now. They have become part of our culture in a way they never were before. If you showed videos of drug users on the streets of America to someone 50 years ago they would be shocked at how things have panned out. Of course fentanyl is not weed and weed is not coke and coke is not adhd drugs or whatever but even when it comes to weed there is increasing evidence around links to mental health issues. We can also see the consequences of legalisation in America and Canada and it doesn't look great to me. Apparently if you walk around New York these days the smell of weed is everywhere. Is this really a good thing? I don't know what the answers are tbh although in this country we could start small at least and maybe start doing something about Newbury racecourse lol. With something like fentanyl that's linked to China and the Mexican cartels. In the UK the coke industry seems to have strong connections with the Albanian underworld. But, and I say this as a former stoner, I am not convinced legalisation of weed is a good idea anymore but in the UK at present it feels like it's de facto decriminalised anyway and maybe that's part of the problem. I mean you can turn 40 or whatever and decide the behaviour you used to indulge in quite happily is no longer a good look for the new found conservative image you've decided to adopt and that therefore you're going to adopt the prohibitive attitude that actually had precisely no effect at all on your own behaviour when you were young, or you can accept that this is just something many like to do and it is unlikely to be stopped by punitive sanctions. So that's where the discussion needs to get a bit more honest and thoughtful in my view. Is it worse now than it was in the 90s when clubs were full of teenagers blitzed out on E? I seem to remember in 1995 they estimated that 2 million people were taking it every weekend. It seems less embedded in youth culture than it was, but there are now different 'legal' highs that are actually not very safe at all to worry about. I would also agree that the super-strength skunk is a big problem, particularly on the estates and amongst many working class males. The thing is the current approach to drugs just hasn't worked has it? It's just created a great free market for criminals. What approach is it though? It's a pretty laissez-faire one it seems to me. If you look at a country like Japan you can see what can be done with certain policies and political will so I'm not convinced it's some pie-in-the-sky fantasy. But clearly it is not easy given where we are today. "decided to adopt". Cheeky fucker. Some us of grow and change in life based on accumulated knowledge and experience G. You and others here should try it! I'm speaking from my personal experience and from seeing what has happened abroad when weed has been legalised. It has not removed the illegal element I'm afraid. That was the claim of course but the real world has disproved it. From personal experience and seeing what heavy weed smoking did to me and others I know of (including two people who experienced serious mental health issues) I have to conclude that it is not harmless at all. My health was affected, my lungs were fucked by the end, I had paranoia and two panic attacks whilst stoned convinced me to finally quit. It also had an impact on relationships (including my sex drive if I'm being brutally honest) and my general energy and va-va-voom. If you were to legalise it and make it easier to get how many young men, who have enough problems these days as they are, would be impacted by all this and how? The legal highs are illegal now. For a few years, however, it was like the wild west I can tell you. Delivery to your door, head shops popping up. I used to get grams of "research chemicals" delivered next day. I was paid off in 2008, split up with a gf two weeks later and I had 3 grand in the bank and guess what I did? Blew it on legal highs. I hardly slept for months. Looked fucking great mind! I had that bath salts shit (google that) once. 10mg and I accidentally took another 20 mg thinking it was 10 and I was awake for 5 days. Never again. And guess what happened when it became illegal? I stopped. Sure you could still get mephedrone illegally but what was the point? You had to find a dealer etc and go through all that hassle. My mate stopped too. I dunno about numbers these days man. How accurate are these things? The numbers from the 90s seem a bit high to me tbh but who knows? www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/drugmisuseinenglandandwales/yearendingjune2022Weed appears to be very common and smoked openly in a way it never used to be growing up. Cocaine is rife in parts it appears when it never used to be (I hardly ever touched it when I was younger). The quality in pills increased dramatically in the last 5-10 years and with the dark web there was definitely more of them going around.
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Post by tory on Jul 28, 2023 7:01:03 GMT
I gave up recreational drugs around ten years ago or so. I'll admit that I enjoyed using them - mostly MDMA, never Cannabis, Cocaine on the odd occasion, but never habitual. I lived that metropolitan middle-class existence where the actual effects of the drug trade, in the hardened criminality, never really affected me. It would always be someone else who "knew someone who can get x or y". A cosseted existence.
Once I realised what the drug trade does to people and its effect on crime, my view on drugs changed. It's pretty much responsible for most crime, particularly in London, whether it be driving burglary (which is now almost a non-crime in the UK) and theft, or whether it's violent crime for criminal gangs to stake out territory. County Lines is horrific - the methods they use to ensnare vulnerable teenagers into working for them is particularly despicable.
Cannabis is the one drug that I think is incredibly destructive. I have two acquaintances that I know who are long-term heavy weed smokers and both of them struggle with anxiety and paranoia. I see no empirical evidence that smoking weed does them any good. I am also unconvinced by the line of argument that "it doesn't do me any harm". It might not have a bad effect on certain individuals, but the process of growing and distributing it en masse is in the hands of nefarious and exploitative criminal gangs who do not view the product as a holistic positive, but simple profit.
I'm just totally unconvinced by the argument that large criminal organisations will pivot into other avenues of criminality if drugs are legalised. Peter Hitchens argues, convincingly in my opinion, that putting illegal drugs into the hands of large pharmaceutical organisations will just open up another market for drug users and to grow that market. Another more expensive market ultimately - one that will be highly regulated by the Government and thus push up the price of the product, thus enabling gangs that already have highly sophisticated and well organised methods of production and distribution to undercut them, often by a significant amount.
Drug possession needs to be hit hard. One strike and you're out. And not necessarily prison time for some individuals but a significant fine - I'd say a five or even six figure fine that is dependent on current income. Prison doesn't do anything to certain individuals, so hit their ability to earn in the future through tax. Perhaps that, for certain people, might not do anything, but it might deter those who are otherwise law-abiding citizens. Stop or curtail the demand and you might try to make a dent.
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Post by oh oooh on Jul 28, 2023 7:36:30 GMT
'I've had my fun now everyone should suffer'
you should listen to the pair of you. Absolutely shameless
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Post by tory on Jul 28, 2023 7:49:52 GMT
Or perhaps it's "Upon reflection, I look back at my past with an element of shame and regret".
Thanks John. Cunt.
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Post by oh oooh on Jul 28, 2023 7:58:07 GMT
Well, that's one thing - having regrets, reassessing your past behaviour.
But deciding that everyone else should adopt certain behaviour patterns in the light of that is ridiculous. At best.
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Post by tory on Jul 28, 2023 8:05:10 GMT
Do you think that criminal gangs should continue to make vast profits off the production and distribution of drugs John?
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Post by DarknessFish on Jul 28, 2023 8:14:33 GMT
Do you thing castration is too good for 'em, John? Weed smokers? Fucking snowflake.
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Post by tory on Jul 28, 2023 8:19:22 GMT
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Post by DarknessFish on Jul 28, 2023 8:22:24 GMT
Do you think your life would've been made better and society as a whole would've been served better if you'd been given prison time or a fine that left you in poverty in your early 20s.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jul 28, 2023 8:32:10 GMT
'I've had my fun now everyone should suffer' you should listen to the pair of you. Absolutely shameless "suffer". An odd interpretation of my post. There are myths around drugs that don't tally to my own experience or the real world. The notion that weed is some harmless drug is simply not true. The notion that if people want drugs they will somehow get them regardless is not true either, at least not for recreational ones (with heroin and crack it can be different). The illegal weed trade still exists in America therefore legalisation does not remove the criminal element. Did I have fun at times? Yes, of course. But there were consequences that weren't always apparent to me at the time, at least not fully consciously. Looking back on all this and recognising that and therefore changing my pov is a natural part of getting older. It is not trying to deny the Yoof FUN. It is expressing caution and trying to look at things from a different angle. The thing with weed, in particular, is that it's a cocoon drug. It inoculates you from the real world. I used it in that way for sure and for other reasons too. I think that element of it is a large part of its appeal because it's a lifestyle drug isn't it? Now, some people smoke weed a lot and still live a life and still do things but for others it becomes a crutch, a tool to avoid reality and the real world. That's not a good thing, for individuals or society. It's one of the reasons why I don't think legalisation is the way to go. I think too many people, young ones in particular, would fall into that hole.
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Post by tory on Jul 28, 2023 8:34:53 GMT
It's a good question. Perhaps, yes. I don't think I was aware of just how damaging criminal gangs are and how they ensnare vulnerable young men and teenage boys into a life of crime. If that was made aware to me, then I think I probably wouldn't have made those choices. Drug usage and possession is a nebulous world - very often, those who participate have little to no connection to that criminality. However, our wooly acceptance of drug usage is the problem.
Italy's criminal justice system is one where, if caught for the first time, you go to prison for a short period - around 14 days. It doesn't impact on your record or your job, but it seems to work well enough that the "short, sharp shock" seems to put off many people from committing a second crime, because then, you go to prison properly. They have a lot of people in prisons, but in relation to other countries, little crime. I don't know if it would translate to Britain, where the problem is that going to prison leads to a compound effect on criminality.
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Post by DarknessFish on Jul 28, 2023 8:56:42 GMT
It's a good question. Perhaps, yes. I don't think I was aware of just how damaging criminal gangs are and how they ensnare vulnerable young men and teenage boys into a life of crime. If that was made aware to me, then I think I probably wouldn't have made those choices. Drug usage and possession is a nebulous world - very often, those who participate have little to no connection to that criminality. However, our wooly acceptance of drug usage is the problem. Italy's criminal justice system is one where, if caught for the first time, you go to prison for a short period - around 14 days. It doesn't impact on your record or your job, but it seems to work well enough that the "short, sharp shock" seems to put off many people from committing a second crime, because then, you go to prison properly. They have a lot of people in prisons, but in relation to other countries, little crime. I don't know if it would translate to Britain, where the problem is that going to prison leads to a compound effect on criminality. I don't think it really works that way though, does it. I mean you're an intelligent bloke, you weren't unaware of criminal gangs, you probably even had school visits about this kind of stuff. But you're out on a night out, someone offers you whatever drug of the day, you took it. You could've been self-destructive, you could've been hedonistic, whatever mood, but no-one is well served by you being given a heavy-handed punishment. It could ruin your life, lead to other ruined lives via the criminal gateway of prison, and all for what? For no direct impact on those criminal gangs. Interesting you mention Italy, because even given those laws, they don't seem to be doing particularly well for drug use stats, according to this EU report: www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2022_en. Sadly, Brexit means we're not included for directly comparable figures.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Jul 28, 2023 8:59:06 GMT
Do you think your life would've been made better and society as a whole would've been served better if you'd been given prison time or a fine that left you in poverty in your early 20s. I went to Thailand years ago. I visited the place where they have the full moon party to see what the craic was. Obviously drugs are sold there (hash, pills, other) and there are dealers who target tourists but you also run the risk of getting caught and if you get caught you're in a Thai jail. Which is not a place you'd ever want to be. I went to India years ago. Hash is openly sold to backpackers, often through rickshaw drivers, and is widely tolerated at hotels etc. The cops are disinterested. Guess which place I bought drugs in?
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Post by DarknessFish on Jul 28, 2023 9:01:10 GMT
The wrong one.
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Post by DayoRemix on Jul 28, 2023 10:55:13 GMT
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