Sneelock
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Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Apr 10, 2020 17:12:08 GMT
I think it's fair to notice that Prog fans can be, to put it mildly -- dogmatic.
I like Prog but I also like Annette Funicello & the Chipmunks so it's silly for me to act all Big Brained about it. Prog fans often do that but IMO they aren't the only ones who do this.it's just easier to notice.
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prog
Apr 10, 2020 17:17:21 GMT
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Post by oh oooh on Apr 10, 2020 17:17:21 GMT
It smells a bit. And so do its fans
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Apr 10, 2020 18:40:58 GMT
It smells a bit. And so do its fans That will be the Odour of Sanctimonity |
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prog
Apr 10, 2020 18:52:08 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Apr 10, 2020 18:52:08 GMT
It should surprise nobody that I’m not a fan. I’m fairly comfortable tossing out the whole genre - depending on where you draw the lines.
A lot of my very favorite music could be called baroque pop, and somewhere around Procul Harum there’s some blurring of the lines between baroque and prog. I’m pretty happy in that neck of the woods. But what those records (at least, the ones I like) tend to have is brevity and concision. The more that breaks down, the less I give a shit.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Apr 10, 2020 19:22:14 GMT
Just turn Davey loose.  I would NEVER assume a lack of emotion in anyone’s music. How would I know? But in the case of most prog, I simply don’t care how much emotion is put into it. What matters is whether it inspires any emotion in me - and sadly, most prog leaves me cold. I fully accept that this is a deficit on my part. Life would be better if all music moved me. If every movie thrilled. If all food tasted wonderful. If I could fall in love with anyone and everyone. Wouldn’t it be nice? But that’s not true of many people. We talk here because it is interesting to see different perspectives, and it is interesting to consider the limits of our own. It wasn’t as readily apparent to me back when I first came to BCB that having standards was a virtue. Back then, the idea of being open to everything was the dominant paradigm. So people seemingly fell all over themselves finding reasons to defend almost everything that smacked of even moderate ambition - or the complete confectionary absence of it. The only music that was safe to dislike was music of middling ambition. Prog has ambition to spare, so some folks are always going to respond to that. Me? I appreciate the effort the way I appreciate the best haberdashery in town. Good on you, but not for me. We now live in the era of Drake and Ariana Grande. The “broad church” has been shown to be a bankrupt idea. So just like what you like and don’t like what you don’t. I don’t like prog as a genre the way some of you don’t like opera. It doesn’t need to be moralized. |
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prog
Apr 10, 2020 19:43:59 GMT
Post by oh oooh on Apr 10, 2020 19:43:59 GMT
It wasn’t as readily apparent to me back when I first came to BCB that having standards was a virtue. Back then, the idea of being open to everything was the dominant paradigm. So people seemingly fell all over themselves finding reasons to defend almost everything that smacked of even moderate ambition - or the complete confectionary absence of it. The only music that was safe to dislike was music of middling ambition. Yeah, that always bothered me. Moving from real life, "real" friends - where you'd make a stand for your favourite band against all the slings and arrows, where tribalism gave you character - to the 'there is no bad music' world of the music message board was kind of refreshing. Initially. But slowly I began to realise that that kind of tolerance didn't necessarily lead to very interesting discussions. And if you'd wade into a 'best Dylan album' thread to say that it was ALL shit was REALLY bad form.  |
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prog
Apr 10, 2020 20:09:20 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Apr 10, 2020 20:09:20 GMT
Just for interest’s sake...
What percentage of a statement like that (about Dylan) was wind-up, and what percentage was an actual belief?
I’ll compare it to my, “the worst of The Beatles is better than the best Nick Cave” shtick. At some level it was wind-up - but there was a basic truth there too. Because while he may be able to write and record an objectively better song than “When I Get Home” - his dour, flatulent punk-poet act was never going to offer anywhere near the joy that came off of that record.
I disagreed with you on a lot of your takes - and I enjoyed “fighting” with you about them. But I never took your dismissals all that seriously. I just figured that you were getting at something akin to my critique of Nick Cave - a kind of questioning of the whole Dylan aesthetic.
I wasn’t convinced to start disliking Dylan because of that. But it was good to re-examine him from a new perspective.
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Post by oh oooh on Apr 10, 2020 20:25:23 GMT
It didn't start as a wind-up!
I've always reacted strongly against any kind of consensus - perceived or otherwise. That's one part of it. The other part has more to do with a dislike of those classic American artists - Cash, Dylan, Cohen et al. I love some individual songs by them, but when looked at from a distance, they're kind of brown and boring. And the adulation they receive is even more stultifying.
It always puzzled and frustrated me that there wasn't more of a kick-back against the kind of universal praise you'd get in some threads. Why would you wade in just to say 'yes I like him too'? Why not make a stand for your own beliefs? That, to me, is just carrying over your real-life arguments with friends onto a message board. It stimulates debate, right? at least that. And it's fun! I know YOU get that. But that was never the way it was. And, to be fair, that's not really the way it works on MOST boards (hence 'troll' and all that nonsense - like someone who has a different opinion is just doing it for attention! I mean, come on).
Anyway it soon became adversarial with dullards like Wilson, who'd invariably play the man and not the ball. That's when, admittedly, the 'wind-up' thing became more of a M.O.
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prog
Apr 10, 2020 22:57:46 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Apr 10, 2020 22:57:46 GMT
So at some level -it really is about questioning the whole aesthetic.? You were looking for something that felt more alive than what you perceived as the stodgy “brown” Americana precursors? Is that fair? That’s not that different than my take on Cave.
Bringing it back around to prog - that’s the thing. People will start in on that “how do you dismiss whole genres” thing - but really... who doesn’t have some basic musical values that don’t run counter to the values of a genre or two?
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Apr 10, 2020 23:10:11 GMT
I think there are labels and there are ghettos.
Labels help you find things and ghettos help you avoid them.
most of the prog I like came into my life under the label "rock music" - ELP, Tull, Yes etc..
now, there's certainly a Botique aspect to this like I was saying about Film Noir recently. Still, I heard Gong and Van Der Graaf presented as "rock music" I think you decide to label it as something you like or ghettoize it as something you don't
Zappa used to say that his records didn't get played because radio stations put them in a box that said "do not play this". I think we all have a box like that
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prog
Apr 11, 2020 6:49:49 GMT
Post by oh oooh on Apr 11, 2020 6:49:49 GMT
So at some level -it really is about questioning the whole aesthetic.? You were looking for something that felt more alive than what you perceived as the stodgy “brown” Americana precursors? Is that fair? That’s not that different than my take on Cave. Bringing it back around to prog - that’s the thing. People will start in on that “how do you dismiss whole genres” thing - but really... who doesn’t have some basic musical values that don’t run counter to the values of a genre or two? Exactly. |
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Post by fonz on Apr 11, 2020 9:28:31 GMT
I’ve got a cheap subscription to PROG magazine. I don’t know who most of the people in it are, or at least, I’m not familiar with their music.
But there’s the odd article I really enjoy, plus the odd Zappa or Dream Theater piece.
Despite not actually liking much of the music I still enjoy the magazine. Maybe I could read a magazine about generic 60’s soul and get the same satisfaction, so long as it was written with enthusiasm.
I like music. It makes me tick. I like to understand others’ sources of musical pleasure; the common bond between us.
I think a lot of the nausea associated with prog can be attributed to one man: Tony Banks.
Every picture I’ve ever seen of him he looks like a smug cunt who clearly despise the world, including his Genesis band mates. The epitome of all that is bad with prog.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Apr 11, 2020 10:07:31 GMT
I think it's fair to notice that Prog fans can be, to put it mildly -- dogmatic.I like Prog but I also like Annette Funicello & the Chipmunks so it's silly for me to act all Big Brained about it. Prog fans often do that but IMO they aren't the only ones who do this.it's just easier to notice. People grew up with this stuff and that means something. It's the music of C's youth and I guess you carry that flame your whole life. Years of people slagging prog off has created a kind of bunker, cult like mentality in some prog fans though. |
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prog
Apr 14, 2020 22:29:53 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Apr 14, 2020 22:29:53 GMT
I revisited King Crimson's Poseidon, Lizards, and Islands. They are all rather shambolic, sometimes amateurishly so, weak songwriting, weak singing, but then with some very hot Britjazz playing. All with Beautiful covers/artwork that seem appropriate for a major British band making a major artistic statement, yet the major artistic statement never comes together.
Earthbound, the live 72 album that was put out as a inexpensive lark, may actually be the best of the era. It is raw, distorted, powerful, hinting at becoming unhinged the way the studio albums should have been.
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prog
Apr 15, 2020 11:48:20 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Apr 15, 2020 11:48:20 GMT
Did KC ever better the debut?
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