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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 15:22:36 GMT
I disagree, I'm asking for perspective in the difference in the two tasks before you start ripping on the EU.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 23, 2021 15:31:59 GMT
They have fucked up and played politics with the vaccines and ordinary people will suffer the consequences. Like all cunts in power when things start to go wrong and shit doesn't go their way the masks come off.
Well I think the masks are now well and truly off (although you could say they have been before....look at how they treated Greece)
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Post by tory on Mar 23, 2021 15:43:26 GMT
The response has been poor, but there's legit reasons compared to the UK roll out which would be easier to do. The attitude of the british seems to be that "if we were running things in the EU, it would have been rolled out with no issues, just look!!!" That really isn't the attitude. Britain declined to be part of the EU vaccine procurement program because it knew deep down that it needed to act a whole lot quicker than what would have happened if it had signed up. Part of that was I think that the British government gambled big and quick - in that regard they were decisive and maybe just a little bit lucky too. The vaccine seems to work. If no vaccine had been available, then that would have been a disaster. Now, the EU will have paid less for its vaccines because it would have negotiated to do so and maybe in the long run that might turn out to be the "win". The EU in some respects though has paid a penalty because it has been far too slow (perhaps that is indicative of too much bureaucracy) in procuring the vaccine and now seems to have a very muddled roll out where very few of the countries seem to have been efficient at all in rolling things out - not helped by anti-vax sentiment that in places like France is nearly half of the population. Added to that, you have two heads of state who have made statements about a certain vaccine with little or no evidence to back up their assertions. When you also consider that one of those heads of state is a qualified scientist, it makes things a lot more muddled. On top of that, you then have an unelected commissioner who is chucking her weight around and one wonders what is going on. The economic impact of little or no tourist season in the Mediterranean for a second year running could be disastrous. As I said before, the nature of the EU does not lend itself well to a crisis and this is evidence of that. Will the EU survive Covid? Probably yes, because I think the sentiment, at least in terms of the much smaller countries who have joined it recently is to keep it going. But the real test will be one of the major countries, particularly France, in the next couple of years. If there is another crisis within a short space of time, then I think that could be a very big problem. There is little evidence of any "if we were running the EU etc" because the British government or political establishment has never had any desire of "leading Europe" at all. What frustrates British participation in Europe is the fact that the political structure of the EU is, by design, orientated towards French and German hegemony.
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Post by cousinlou on Mar 23, 2021 15:55:40 GMT
[The economic impact of little or no tourist season in the Mediterranean for a second year running could be disastrous. . What!? You’re saying there’s a serious risk Venice will have clean canals for ever? That the concrete walls they call hotels on the coast lines of Spain will have to disappear? How terrible!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:01:44 GMT
They did appear to treat them bad Dougie , however, Greece and it's people cannot believe that we left the EU . It is the second thing new people here say after hello. They (despite the measures imposed on them) are very pro EU and see it as a positive. This may change as the years pass, who knows? The rise of the far right ,Golden Dawn and associates rose during the hard times (don't they always when you need someone to point a finger of blame). I think the stats say the Greeks are dissatisfied with the EU, go figure. In truth some sort of regulatory control and guidelines will lift the country. Their whole system is frankly an appaling mess that even they don't seem to understand. What they really don't like is paying taxes. The difference here between the attitudes of the young and old and village and town is staggering.
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Post by tory on Mar 23, 2021 16:08:04 GMT
Would it be correct to say that Greece has a significant "cultural" issue with regard to tax? I have a Greek acquaintance who left the country to live in Britain because there seems to be a widespread issue with regard to low level corruption linked to tax evasion. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33479946This article seems to suggest that 1 in 4 euros wasn't declared in tax - and that Greece's shadow economy is around 27% of GDP compared to an average of about 20%.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:09:04 GMT
[The economic impact of little or no tourist season in the Mediterranean for a second year running could be disastrous. . What!? You’re saying there’s a serious risk Venice will have clean canals for ever? That the concrete walls they call hotels on the coast lines of Spain will have to disappear? How terrible! Where I live ( tourism is the main income) the effects of another year like last year will be disastrous. It is all they talk about, when will the tourists return. It is their only income for six months of the year. There are abandon projects everywhere and the observation of hardships are becoming obvious.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:23:26 GMT
Would it be correct to say that Greece has a significant "cultural" issue with regard to tax? I have a Greek acquaintance who left the country to live in Britain because there seems to be a widespread issue with regard to low level corruption linked to tax evasion. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33479946This article seems to suggest that 1 in 4 euros wasn't declared in tax - and that Greece's shadow economy is around 27% of GDP compared to an average of about 20%. An actual Greek person would be better qualified to answer that than me Toby. I am aware of the idea that the smaller communities see laws and taxes differently to the more highly populated towns. The generation who are at the top of the tree seem to infuriate the more tech savvy younger generation. I would say they are poles apart. Greece is on the up ( tourism is needed desperately though). If you rent a property say the Greek will say it is three hundred a month but through their accounts a much lower figure will be declared, I (somehow) got a lower price on my TV because , as my Greek friend said " I told him you would buy without receipt" whatever that entailed. It is a strange system here. I need to live here longer to grasp it. My application for the new residents permit is proving to be a nightmare (think of the movie Brazil) one step forward , five steps back. I needed three different accountants before I could get my tax number and the police , well, let's just say it depends what side of the bed they got out of as to whether they will assist. There doesn't seem to be corruption as much as there is total system failure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:30:33 GMT
They have fucked up and played politics with the vaccines and ordinary people will suffer the consequences. Like all cunts in power when things start to go wrong and shit doesn't go their way the masks come off. Well I think the masks are now well and truly off (although you could say they have been before....look at how they treated Greece) We're getting in to the EU are cunts in general here, that's not what i'm talking about. We got the same treatment as Greece, and we hated it but it had to be done because we went to fucking town during the boom. We're in a better place for it now though, it was seriously tough, no doubt.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 23, 2021 16:36:43 GMT
I know some of it was self-inflicted...the Greece went mad and wildly overspent.
Probably karma for inventing bum sex.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:37:35 GMT
The response has been poor, but there's legit reasons compared to the UK roll out which would be easier to do. The attitude of the british seems to be that "if we were running things in the EU, it would have been rolled out with no issues, just look!!!" That really isn't the attitude. Britain declined to be part of the EU vaccine procurement program because it knew deep down that it needed to act a whole lot quicker than what would have happened if it had signed up. Part of that was I think that the British government gambled big and quick - in that regard they were decisive and maybe just a little bit lucky too. The vaccine seems to work. If no vaccine had been available, then that would have been a disaster. Now, the EU will have paid less for its vaccines because it would have negotiated to do so and maybe in the long run that might turn out to be the "win". The EU in some respects though has paid a penalty because it has been far too slow (perhaps that is indicative of too much bureaucracy) in procuring the vaccine and now seems to have a very muddled roll out where very few of the countries seem to have been efficient at all in rolling things out - not helped by anti-vax sentiment that in places like France is nearly half of the population. Added to that, you have two heads of state who have made statements about a certain vaccine with little or no evidence to back up their assertions. When you also consider that one of those heads of state is a qualified scientist, it makes things a lot more muddled. On top of that, you then have an unelected commissioner who is chucking her weight around and one wonders what is going on. The economic impact of little or no tourist season in the Mediterranean for a second year running could be disastrous. As I said before, the nature of the EU does not lend itself well to a crisis and this is evidence of that. Will the EU survive Covid? Probably yes, because I think the sentiment, at least in terms of the much smaller countries who have joined it recently is to keep it going. But the real test will be one of the major countries, particularly France, in the next couple of years. If there is another crisis within a short space of time, then I think that could be a very big problem. There is little evidence of any "if we were running the EU etc" because the British government or political establishment has never had any desire of "leading Europe" at all. What frustrates British participation in Europe is the fact that the political structure of the EU is, by design, orientated towards French and German hegemony. All of what you said here is correct. The thing is, it's two different entities dealing with the same issue, with out having more hoops to jump through. I think it's unfair to criticize the EU the way some brits have. Like i said i'm asking for perspective. I can't add anything more without us going around in circles.
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Post by tory on Mar 23, 2021 16:55:09 GMT
We are giving it perspective though.
The point of this particular part of the discussion is the very nature of the EU inhibits speed and agility in decision making. Everything has to go through hoops. Britain chose not to be a part of the EU partly because of this and has, at least in this episode, been vindicated somewhat by it so far. The political clamour that has arisen from this does the EU no favours, because by its very nature, it is not in its interests politically to have a member leave and prosper afterwards. For countries that have large sections of their populace who see membership as problematic, such as France, Germany and Italy, that will send large alarm bells ringing. This is one of the key problems of the EU that many people don't seem to grasp.
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Post by cousinlou on Mar 23, 2021 17:17:33 GMT
What!? You’re saying there’s a serious risk Venice will have clean canals for ever? That the concrete walls they call hotels on the coast lines of Spain will have to disappear? How terrible! Where I live ( tourism is the main income) the effects of another year like last year will be disastrous. It is all they talk about, when will the tourists return. It is their only income for six months of the year. There are abandon projects everywhere and the observation of hardships are becoming obvious. Yes sure. It’s just a rumour that’s going around town. Shit happens and then people find their ways around it. Shipyards, mines........
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 17:18:14 GMT
Whereas EU legislation must by it's different members interests take longer , maybe, it is generally better for it. It's rules, standards etc once approved are less likely to be ripped apart by say one party in the UK dismantling the previous party in powers legislation. Or maybe that's a better system. Then again we are becoming a tin pot nation with Buffon's full of self interest ( vaccine success not withstanding). Alas, time will tell.
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Post by oh oooh on Apr 30, 2021 10:23:55 GMT
for FUCK'S sake
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