rayge
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Post by rayge on Jan 30, 2020 17:42:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 17:50:23 GMT
I'm at work so watched the first few minutes. Seems interesting and will watch, thanks.
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Post by tory on Jan 30, 2020 18:10:32 GMT
There is an aspect of this whole episode that is essentially about manners and custom.
We are finding that with a more diverse society in terms of heritages and sexual outlook, there are a multiplicity of views and codes that have to be deciphered and interpreted. This takes generations to get accustomed to (hence the phrase).
There is no doubt that at the heart of political correctness is a core belief that people should be treated with respect and kindness. It can be used as a kind of Trojan Horse though by people who themselves profess to be anti-authoritarian, but are authoritarian in their belief about what is correct and not correct.
The reality is that many people who talk about tolerance misunderstand the phrase itself and we then enter this Orwellian world where the meanings of language is twisted to suit those who wield it. So tolerance really is "putting up with stuff I don't like" - to endure something rather than to welcome it. So tolerance is admitting that you don't like something, but you'll put up with it. Whereas to the lib-left worldview, tolerance really seems to be mutating into "i actively endorse this thing" rather than what it actually means.
I realise that language is fluid and never set in stone, but when words utterly lose their meaning, one has to start worrying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 18:36:26 GMT
It's about a clash of beliefs, ideas, a worldview. One side, we'll call them the "progressive" side believes immigration is great, immigration is wonderful and some even want more immigration. I'll call that the global village approach (see London). The other side is like, hang on a minute. They are not convinced by multiculturalism to the same extent but most will recognise the need for immigration but want it more controlled and exlusive. They have concerns over integration or lack thereof. They have concerns over letting people into our country whose values and beliefs might be less compatible with our own (compounded by, let's face it, Islamism and anti-western hostility within some groups). They have concerns over services like the NHS and the jobs market and are worried immigration might stretch things too far (when they are already stretched anyway). They feel a sense of loss, perhaps, at the changing face of their towns, cities and country (none of which they actually really voted for) and maybe want to push back against that. These are legitimate concerns and human ones too. I mean if you went to Florence one day and half the city was Brits who had permanently moved there over the last few years would you not maybe express a belief that something had maybe been lost and maybe sympathise with a local who expressed the same feeling? The "progressive" side labels all these people racists and xenophobes and thick wankers. Etc. The culture war isn't just about PC or wokeness. This made me think of the recent Supreme Court decision on immigration where they ruled on immigrants to the US having a certain financial standing. MAGA people probably love it, but I wonder if that means they're going to get rid of the words at the base of the Statue of Liberty, "Give us your tired, poor, etc., etc.."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 18:58:15 GMT
In general, I think it's a clash between old viewpoints and more enlightened viewpoints. There are certain times where cultural change happens fairly quickly, and I think this is one of those times.
In the US, and it strikes me as the same in Britain, that the population is changing very rapidly and ethnicities, for example, are demanding more of a voice. The African American population hasn't really changed that much, but I think Obama's presidency has shown Black folks that they can demand more of a voice in politics and society. And it's certainly true in California, where the Hispanic population represents the majority, but may not have the monetary power to influence change. So, how does that happen? Politically and culturally.
Certain segments of the population, namely rich and working class white folks, don't like the cultural shift and that they're being shaken out of their unawareness - whether it be racially or sexually re: gender identification.
I just wish that more people who are trying to wake people up would do it less aggressively, realizing that these views are very long-held. I think their viewpoint is that folks like this have been able to hold these views for long enough and it's time to shake them awake vs. gently whispering in their ear that's it's time to wake up.
I think they think that they are the cultural alarm clocks and everyone needs to spring to their feet and listen.
I don't think they're wrong, but I don't know if that it's that successful an approach. It just makes people dig in their heels.
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Post by tory on Jan 30, 2020 19:20:46 GMT
Who is to say or judge that these new people are right or wrong?
The issue with the "progressive" narrative is that its very essence suggests that what has gone before was wrong and bad. Now, in some cases, such as that of slavery, there is damning evidence about this. But it is not the only narrative. The idea that we are inexorably moving forward towards "enlightenment", coming out of the "darkness" is a very troublesome and problematic story - because it often rides roughshod over older, traditional customs, some of which are part of society, like for example Christianity, of which much in terms of our social and cultural lives is extremely important. Yes, there are sentiments such as attitudes towards homosexuality and misogyny that we all recognise need to be addressed, but there are plenty of other attitudes, some of which are very much a part of a particular culture's fabric, that are not easily removed, and one wonders whether they should be. This is difficult territory - there are often practices and customs that essentially conflict very much with the globalised, western world that we live in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 19:35:49 GMT
Who is to say or judge that these new people are right or wrong? The issue with the "progressive" narrative is that its very essence suggests that what has gone before was wrong and bad. Now, in some cases, such as that of slavery, there is damning evidence about this. But it is not the only narrative. The idea that we are inexorably moving forward towards "enlightenment", coming out of the "darkness" is a very troublesome and problematic story - because it often rides roughshod over older, traditional customs, some of which are part of society, like for example Christianity, of which much in terms of our social and cultural lives is extremely important. Yes, there are sentiments such as attitudes towards homosexuality and misogyny that we all recognise need to be addressed, but there are plenty of other attitudes, some of which are very much a part of a particular culture's fabric, that are not easily removed, and one wonders whether they should be. This is difficult territory - there are often practices and customs that essentially conflict very much with the globalised, western world that we live in. I think this goes back to G's comments about being binary. I just expressed what I think is happening and you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I don't agree that just because something is traditional it's a good thing. Slavery still exists by the way, so someone ain't getting the message.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 20:38:46 GMT
And I don't agree that just because something is traditional it's a good thing. Neither do I, but it's something of a default stance for Toby as he likes to be seen to be taking a visible Conservative position.
I don't know what point he's trying to make with his remarks about Christianity. It's far less under threat from immigration as it is from the long standing (at least in Britain) decline in religious belief ("it will vanish and shrink"!) in Britain. If anything, it's been reinvigorated, particularly by the black pentecostal churches which is giving Christianity a visibility in communities it was lacking before (again, I'm talking specifically about the UK here).
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 30, 2020 20:46:42 GMT
There's this theoretical stance you're getting here (and elsewhere, of course) from some people: 'what's happening in society today is a result of...', or 'the reasons for Trump's success are clear...'. These statements I suppose come from an attempt to rationalise behaviour - BUT they aren't a reflection of peoples' beliefs. So I can't help concluding that these are stated by people who ultimately don't give a shit about any of these changes. For whatever reason.
I mean, we don't talk about music in the same way, do we? Nobody here talks about sales figures, the changing number of people in the band, that kind of thing. Why not? Because we feel passionately about music, right?
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 30, 2020 20:49:29 GMT
'the Left's refusal to engage with...'
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 21:06:07 GMT
And I don't agree that just because something is traditional it's a good thing. Neither do I, but it's something of a default stance for Toby as he likes to be seen to be taking a visible Conservative position.
I don't know what point he's trying to make with his remarks about Christianity. It's far less under threat from immigration as it is from the long standing (at least in Britain) decline in religious belief ("it will vanish and shrink"!) in Britain. If anything, it's been reinvigorated, particularly by the black pentecostal churches which is giving Christianity a visibility in communities it was lacking before (again, I'm talking specifically about the UK here).
Christianity is also on the rise, internationally: www.pewforum.org/2005/03/02/faith-and-conflict-the-global-rise-of-christianity/And as you write, if those people from other countries immigrate to the UK and the US, those numbers will rise still vs. its demise among white folks in both places. As in the UK, the US' decline in religion, ie Christianity, is among its traditional base of white folks, which I think scares "traditionalists." That train has left the station, Toby.
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Post by The Red Heifer on Jan 30, 2020 21:07:42 GMT
Nobody here talks about sales figures Yes we're all very happy that Copehead doesn't post here.
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Post by tory on Jan 30, 2020 21:48:44 GMT
I don't know whether immigration into countries like Britain brings with it a rise in Christianity.
There is no doubt that cultures such as African ones for example, which are mostly conservative in nature, bring with them a strong Christian culture. I'd argue however that Christianity on the whole is in decline in the West. The evidence for this is overwhelming - we are in a mostly Post-Christian culture. Yes, there are revivals, strongholds and the like, but in my own life time I've seen a massive decline in church attendance. I actually live in quite a strong area for C of E attendance because of faith school requirements, but I'd say it's the exception.
I can't see any evidence for Christianity increasing in a society where the dominant narrative is one of decline.
I've got no idea what you are saying here. How can you judge what people's beliefs are? You seem to be relying on anecdotal evidence.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Jan 30, 2020 21:55:10 GMT
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.
Often your posts are analytical, rational. They don't betray any personal belief because you're attempting to understand certain behaviours.
Why is that?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 22:04:12 GMT
A) If immigrants are allowed to immigrate, and are Christian, why wouldn't it rise? Also immigrants tend to settle in areas of like immigrants and church has traditionally been a weekly gathering place.
B) I think everyone agrees with Christianity's demise in the West among 3rd, 4th, 5th generation people to more secular belief systems. I thought that was pretty much agreed on.
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