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Post by oh oooh on May 19, 2020 11:26:14 GMT
No. It's a Jewish name is the point and that the MP himself has noted Jewish ancestry and identifies as Jewish. This is all out there. "still waiting on evidence". Are you Copehead in disguise? I'm putting forward the idea that if some minority MP from the left had their foreign name mocked by an article in a right wing paper that would be interpreted as "racism" or "islamophobia" by your Guardian types and there would be criticism. Given Lee's stand up in regards to PC in the past I suspect he wouldn't be cool with it either therefore it comes across as a bit contradictory. Would Lee take the piss out of an Arab name? Give me evidence of him taking the piss out of somebody else's foreign name! Etc. One can infer. We are going round in circles as we tend to do on these kinds of issues and I'm bored now. Right. And you haven't read the article properly 'cos he comes across better as a stand-up.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 19, 2020 11:30:30 GMT
The worrying thing is, when this happens, it's good news for someone like Patel because it becomes an argument she can easily win. Instead of having to defend her appalling record, she just has to say 'well why SHOULDN'T a woman of Indian heritage do well in life?' - and listen to the applause! Identity politics. It's become a card. People fall back on it, use it to "win" arguments, to refute others people's points and to use their identity back at them ("well you are a white man after all"....applause!). People talk about "power" and "privilege" but playing this card generates this too. How dare you deny my lived experience!
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 19, 2020 11:42:56 GMT
No. It's a Jewish name is the point and that the MP himself has noted Jewish ancestry and identifies as Jewish. This is all out there. "still waiting on evidence". Are you Copehead in disguise? I'm putting forward the idea that if some minority MP from the left had their foreign name mocked by an article in a right wing paper that would be interpreted as "racism" or "islamophobia" by your Guardian types and there would be criticism. Given Lee's stand up in regards to PC in the past I suspect he wouldn't be cool with it either therefore it comes across as a bit contradictory. Would Lee take the piss out of an Arab name? Give me evidence of him taking the piss out of somebody else's foreign name! Etc. One can infer. We are going round in circles as we tend to do on these kinds of issues and I'm bored now. Right. And you haven't read the article properly 'cos he comes across better as a stand-up. Properly? It's not Proust mate. I said I had read it and tried again and got bored because it's unfunny and it's like sinking into a laboured quagmire. Like being hit over the head. I get it. I am quite capable of grasping the joke about the funnee name, John.
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Post by oh oooh on May 19, 2020 11:46:31 GMT
Got bored?
Dougie? Really? Really Dougie?
You've decided absolutely conclusively that what he said was hypocritical and what he wrote was possibly anti-semitic - and you don't want to read the article again because you're worried your conclusions are wrong.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 12:01:13 GMT
Would Lee take the piss out of an Arab name? Give me evidence of him taking the piss out of somebody else's foreign name! Etc. Here you go. You're welcome.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 19, 2020 12:31:03 GMT
Would Lee take the piss out of an Arab name? Give me evidence of him taking the piss out of somebody else's foreign name! Etc. Here you go. You're welcome. Thanks G. I've actually seen that. And laughed.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 19, 2020 13:24:08 GMT
Got bored? Dougie? Really? Really Dougie? You've decided absolutely conclusively that what he said was hypocritical and what he wrote was possibly anti-semitic - and you don't want to read the article again because you're worried your conclusions are wrong. You mind the Danny Baker chimp joke? It's a bit like that. Making a reference to a monkey in relation to a baby of mixed race is a racist joke but Baker was not doing it with racist intent but it could and was interpreted as such. Therefore the picture was racist but the motivation wasn't. I said that at the time. Taking the piss out of the Jewish surname of a British Jewish MP could be construed as antisemitism, or at least being insensitive to Jews ("unintentional antisemitism") and the fact that the Guardian published it is hypocritical because they wouldn't do that if the joke was built around "Hussain" or "Ahmed" or "Hassan" (because: Islamophobia and they would be wary of feeding into that). Similarly if the Daily Mail published something taking the piss out of Muslim MPs name it would get a reaction from Guardian readers etc. That was Toby and mine's original point. With Lee I have put forward two possibilities. One is that he was ignorant... I don't believe he is anti-semitic, I suspect he was ignorant as to his Jewish roots
I.e. there was no intent - similar to Baker - but the result, somewhat predictably, cause offence amongst some Jews. And one, after I thought about it a bit more in regards to the fact that he is also riffed on his ancestor that he did possibly know it was a Jewish surname but carried on anyway. Clearly Lee has done some research himself because he mentions Baron Tugendhat. His wiki entry mentions his Austrian-Jewish background....Did Lee not think that taking the piss out of his Jewish surname might be a bit insensitive then?.....Or did he just not realise?
I am trying to keep a open mind but if Lee knew it was a Jewish surname then I think there is hypocrisy there too because he wouldn't riff on the Arab name of a British Arab MP in the same way (I don't think G's Kofi Annan video is strictly analogous here but nice gotcha). Especially given the context here too. The whole antisemitism problem within Labour and the fact the party are being investigated by the EHRC in regards to claims of institutional anti-semitism. Also the fact that the MP in question has publicly stated he has been the victim of antisemitism during the last election campaign and there has been an increase in anti-semitic attacks in Britain too of course. Given that context, taking the piss out of the Jewish surname of a Conservative MP exhibits a lack of tact that calls into question the Guardian editorial imo. Hence why I said it was not advisable to run with it. And as a general rule of thumb using some MPs foreign name as the butt of a joke isn't a great idea either. But a bad idea doesn't make Lee a bigot.... "I don't believe he is anti-semitic"
I said that earlier that maybe he just wasn't aware so I accept that possibility but the Guardian, however, should be given we are talking about an openly Jewish British MP from a Jewish family of some renown.....the Guardian editors have the ultimate responsibility
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Post by fonz on May 19, 2020 18:01:08 GMT
Lee is fucking tedious at the best of times.
MPs surnames.
Johnson. American for penis.
Do I win a prize?
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Post by Charlie O. on May 19, 2020 19:55:52 GMT
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Post by DarknessFish on May 20, 2020 8:59:23 GMT
You mind the Danny Baker chimp joke? It's a bit like that. Making a reference to a monkey in relation to a baby of mixed race is a racist joke but Baker was not doing it with racist intent but it could and was interpreted as such. Therefore the picture was racist but the motivation wasn't. I said that at the time. Taking the piss out of the Jewish surname of a British Jewish MP could be construed as antisemitism, or at least being insensitive to Jews ("unintentional antisemitism") These things certainly aren't analagous. Danny Baker may not have any racist intent, but he accidentally retreaded a racist trope. There isn't a racist trope of making fun of the name of Jewish people for having mad aristocratic heritage, or a weird sounding name. Or are you saying that all Jewish surnames are out of bounds for mockery? If so, Mr and Mrs Baumgartner want a word.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 20, 2020 10:06:13 GMT
You mind the Danny Baker chimp joke? It's a bit like that. Making a reference to a monkey in relation to a baby of mixed race is a racist joke but Baker was not doing it with racist intent but it could and was interpreted as such. Therefore the picture was racist but the motivation wasn't. I said that at the time. Taking the piss out of the Jewish surname of a British Jewish MP could be construed as antisemitism, or at least being insensitive to Jews ("unintentional antisemitism") These things certainly aren't analagous. Danny Baker may not have any racist intent, but he accidentally retreaded a racist trope. There isn't a racist trope of making fun of the name of Jewish people for having mad aristocratic heritage, or a weird sounding name. Or are you saying that all Jewish surnames are out of bounds for mockery? If so, Mr and Mrs Baumgartner want a word. "mad aristocratic heritage". Not a member of some "repressed minority". Do you think it's cool to take the piss out of foreign sounding names of public officials in a national paper these days? Are you in with that or out? Or is it just ok if the person is Jewish, rich and Tory? Can you understand that by invoking his "mad aristocratic heritage" and mentioning the Baron thing you are maybe, whether you realise it or not, invoking antisemitic tropes about (ancestral) power and influence too? Just a wee bit maybe? You know, like Lord/Baron Rothschild? That sorta thing. Would you defend it on the grounds of free speech if it was a black MP with a funny sounding African name and the article was in the Daily Mail? Maybe followed by some piss taking out of their " mad" tribal ancestor? "of course I would!". Of course some BAME people would object to that in the same way that some Jews have objected to this. Maybe the best approach here, as a rule, is that unless you are going to be consistent in taking the piss potentially out of all foreign surnames (not the Guardians approach, fair to say and probably not a wise approach for obvious reasons) then in this case it comes across as a bit hypocritical.
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Post by oh oooh on May 20, 2020 10:25:21 GMT
This former intelligence officer is the nephew of a real man called Baron Tugendhat. Baron Tugendhat is not a character from a 19th-century German children’s book about a baron with a weird hat, the end of which gets tugged. But what did Tom Tugendhat want? Why was he bothering us?
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Post by oh oooh on May 20, 2020 10:26:15 GMT
Something about the strange collision of unrelated words that form Tom Tugendhat’s surname means that whenever Tom Tugendhat appears in my visionary satire-dreams it is as a territorial army lieutenant colonel forcibly pulling at an end, presumably his own, that has become trapped in a hat, or in an intelligence officer’s wig of disguise. It’s past midnight, and now Baron Tugendhat is in my drunken nightmares, working undercover for James Bond’s great-grandfather, attending a lavish ceremonial dinner at Neuschwanstein castle. The future of Anglo-Bavarian trade relations depends on Baron Tugendhat also tugging his end free of a hat, on this occasion a Tyrolean Alpine bonnet, common to the region, a vagina dentata of felt and chamois leather.
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Post by oh oooh on May 20, 2020 10:27:32 GMT
It's not Proust mate. I said I had read it and tried again and got bored because it's unfunny and it's like sinking into a laboured quagmire. Like being hit over the head. I get it. I am quite capable of grasping the joke about the funnee name, John.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 12:43:45 GMT
Fucking hell you can tell the football's off.
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