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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 12, 2020 2:59:43 GMT
C OVID fatalities too. I hate to be grumpy & inflexible on the days I’m not enjoying it. Still, I feel the same way about the subject of this thread as I do the racism thread. Everybody knows what it is. We all need our little hobbies but I have no use for these complicated Semantics Obstacle Courses that spring up every time something happens so heinous that people are in the streets. I need to worry about people I love when they walk or drive or buy a bag of fucking Skittles. We know what “White privilege” means. I think parsing it is basically a stalling tactic. Yeah. This is an important point. Whenever we participate in these reindeer games, we really do need to keep this in mind. Ultimately we are allowing ourselves to be goaded into bargaining with other people’s rights when they aren’t ours to bargain with.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 12, 2020 3:13:54 GMT
What would be good examples of barriers to success? In the US, in the south you had segregation of everything, separate and unequal: schools, public works, hotels, etc., In the South there were Jim Crow laws that made it difficult for blacks to vote by requiring various kinds of identification, payments and testing. They also forbid intermarriage of races. Throughout the US there was 'red-lining' which Identified whole swaths of cities, towns, neighborhoods that could not be sold to blacks and designated areas that could. During the 60s lots of urban renewal projects in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila, DC, etc., (highways, hospitals, parks, etc.,) were built right through, or in place of traditional black neighborhoods because they did not have the political/legal clout to resist. For those that could afford a house, banks and mortgage companies traditionally charged them higher processing fees and 2-5% higher on loan interest. Universal school testing that is specific to the predominant white culture that you have not been allowed to successfully participate in. Inner city schools are traditionally black and brown and are not as well funded as white suburban schools. Because of the Tuskegee experiment and forced sterilization from '20s-'50s there is a mistrust of the traditional white (male) medical establishment. The doctor who pioneered chemo therapy essentially did unsanctioned experiments and testing on the Puerto Rican population because he considered them "subhuman". This deep mistrust is apparent in black specific conspiracy theories about doctors, hospitals, medicine, mental health diagnosis, even Coca Cola. [bra] At the risk of contradicting my last statement, I would like to add one important thing to the above: Ultimately the mother of all structural barriers placed specifically on Black people in America has been the way the policies laid out above (and many more) have inhibited the transfer of generational wealth. Ultimately that’s the ballgame. That should probably lead us to a conversation about reparations - though I’m not sure that we are collectively up for a productive conversation on that subject. But I’m one who believes that we’re going to have to take that idea seriously soon if we don’t want to keep repeating the same cycles of shocking incident/protest/soul-searching/minor response/latency period/shocking incident/protest/etc forever.
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god
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Jul 12, 2020 13:17:58 GMT
i think discomfort and even resistance are to be expected. This isn't going away. Awareness will come in its own time to each. It is an amazing thing that matter of factly people in all parts of the world can meet on forums to discuss/argue the ideas events in real time. This didn't happen during all previous mass movements of any previous times. The ideas and concepts being discussed here are bigger than the small amount of time being given them in our lives overall though media saturation can seem like an onslaught. They aren't going away, and they will worm their way in unexpectedly.
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god
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Jul 12, 2020 15:58:08 GMT
That should probably lead us to a conversation about reparations - though I’m not sure that we are collectively up for a productive conversation on that subject. But I’m one who believes that we’re going to have to take that idea seriously soon if we don’t want to keep repeating the same cycles of shocking incident/protest/soul-searching/minor response/latency period/shocking incident/protest/etc forever. In line with your thoughts on generational wealth building I have long believed reparations should be in the form of generous tax credits towards mortgages, small business and education. I am afraid if a one time pay is made it will be wasted, not used well, invite fraudulent preying forces upon the recipients, etc., and it could provoke a backlash. Credits through taxes are behind the scenes promoting true long-lasting wealth as also its recipients become better educated and sophisticated about their best use, and it is not one and done. In fact, it there is a limit and cap, unused can be transferred to family members.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Jul 12, 2020 16:25:19 GMT
That should probably lead us to a conversation about reparations - though I’m not sure that we are collectively up for a productive conversation on that subject. But I’m one who believes that we’re going to have to take that idea seriously soon if we don’t want to keep repeating the same cycles of shocking incident/protest/soul-searching/minor response/latency period/shocking incident/protest/etc forever. In line with your thoughts on generational wealth building I have long believed reparations should be in the form of generous tax credits towards mortgages, small business and education. I am afraid if a one time pay is made it will be wasted, not used well, invite fraudulent preying forces upon the recipients, etc., and it could provoke a backlash. Credits through taxes are behind the scenes promoting true long-lasting wealth as also its recipients become better educated and sophisticated about their best use, and it is not one and done. In fact, it there is a limit and cap, unused can be transferred to family members. Like a GI bill? I was listening to an economist who worked in the White House and advised Obama on the radio yesterday. She was saying that the public didn't really aknowledge all the tax credits Obama installed and that people appreciate something tangible like a check. It's the perception, she said. She said it was a good lesson.
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god
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Jul 12, 2020 16:33:52 GMT
In line with your thoughts on generational wealth building I have long believed reparations should be in the form of generous tax credits towards mortgages, small business and education. I am afraid if a one time pay is made it will be wasted, not used well, invite fraudulent preying forces upon the recipients, etc., and it could provoke a backlash. Credits through taxes are behind the scenes promoting true long-lasting wealth as also its recipients become better educated and sophisticated about their best use, and it is not one and done. In fact, it there is a limit and cap, unused can be transferred to family members. Like a GI bill? I was listening to an economist who worked in the White House and advised Obama on the radio yesterday. She was saying that the public didn't really aknowledge all the tax credits Obama installed and that people appreciate something tangible like a check. It's the perception, she said. She said it was a good lesson. Possibly, like the GI bill. I'd have to refresh my mind on that one. Perception is about politics, just like Trump wanting his name on the stimulus checks; and this may actually stalemate reparations.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2020 17:02:04 GMT
I think when it comes to equality, you can't lump everything in together and try and fix it. You have to break it down and work at each one separately. Also acknowledge that some equalities are just fact and set in stone like wealth equality. The only course of action there is to constantly and consistently try to close the gap or maintain it at an acceptable realistic level. All easier said than done.
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Post by tory on Jul 12, 2020 17:31:21 GMT
Equality will never be "fixed".
The idea that there is some "sweet spot" where everything moves in harmony and equilibrium is just nonsense. Inequality and difference will always be present in life and there is little that we can do about that.
Just think of a) the difference between men and women and b) the fundamental "aesthetic" differences between people. How some people are, for example, born with features that can give them enormous privilege in life whereas those born with features deemed to be aesthetically unfavourable, might struggle. Are we to have "beauty privilege" next? I suspect we will at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2020 17:35:13 GMT
I agree, i should have added that it will never be fully fixed, but better chance of improving it more than wealth inequality.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 12, 2020 17:35:55 GMT
Equality will never be "fixed". The idea that there is some "sweet spot" where everything moves in harmony and equilibrium is just nonsense. Inequality and difference will always be present in life and there is little that we can do about that. Just think of a) the difference between men and women and b) the fundamental "aesthetic" differences between people. How some people are, for example, born with features that can give them enormous privilege in life whereas those born with features deemed to be aesthetically unfavourable, might struggle. Are we to have "beauty privilege" next? I suspect we will at some point. You’ve really been dying to make this point - despite nobody here actually arguing for the opposite. So okay. Now you’ve made it. Can we proceed?
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Post by tory on Jul 12, 2020 17:42:49 GMT
You will, for example, appreciate that a POC born with aesthetically pleasing features will have enormous privilege over someone who's white and ugly. That's not to say that there isn't racism in the beauty industry - there clearly is.
The fact is that some sort of privilege, not just based on race, will always exist. Rooting out the very notion of privilege as some sort of cancer that can be eradicated seems to me one of those bone-headed ideas that only intellectuals can think of, because deep down they are ideas that they do not have to pay any sort of price to disseminate.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 12, 2020 18:14:15 GMT
So your point is...what? ‘Life will always have inequities - so what’s the point of dealing with any of them?.’
Just stop.
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Post by tory on Jul 12, 2020 18:42:14 GMT
You are putting words in my mouth.
No, I believe that the ideological drive behind the idea of white privilege wants to remove inequity. It wants a solution to a problem. Like all solutions dreamt up by people, inevitably, some unforseen consequence ends up causing mayhem and destruction far beyond what was originally intended. History shows us that time and time again.
The concept of white privilege has some merit and some value. We need to work through it and discuss what can be used and can be rejected. But when I see "unconscious bias training" being put into schools in this country in a realm of employment I'm entering, I'm afraid that my hackles are raised significantly.
As I said previously on this and the Racism thread, there is no established authority on this subject. Academic thought is being pushed without any institutional aspect to it. Many people are just "accepting" it without it having any real credence. And what I find so frightening is that anyone who is saying "hold on a minute" or "perhaps we should talk this thing through more objectively" is essentially being shouted down and implied that they are a racist.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Jul 12, 2020 19:10:08 GMT
You are putting words in my mouth. No, I believe that the ideological drive behind the idea of white privilege wants to remove inequity. It wants a solution to a problem. Like all solutions dreamt up by people, inevitably, some unforseen consequence ends up causing mayhem and destruction far beyond what was originally intended. History shows us that time and time again. The concept of white privilege has some merit and some value. We need to work through it and discuss what can be used and can be rejected. But when I see "unconscious bias training" being put into schools in this country in a realm of employment I'm entering, I'm afraid that my hackles are raised significantly. As I said previously on this and the Racism thread, there is no established authority on this subject. Academic thought is being pushed without any institutional aspect to it. Many people are just "accepting" it without it having any real credence. And what I find so frightening is that anyone who is saying "hold on a minute" or "perhaps we should talk this thing through more objectively" is essentially being shouted down and implied that they are a racist. Hey man - if you are so bothered by the notion that someone is putting words in your mouth, how about you stop telling us all what our “ideological drive” is. You start every post by attributing an idea to ‘the left’ - then treating us all to a semantic takedown of that idea: ‘Equality is what you want. Now watch as I amaze you with a pithy takedown of the possibility of equality.’ ‘A solution is what you want. Thrill to my rhetorical skills as I deconstruct the possibility of solutions.’ What is all of this effort in service of? Are we really to believe that you just want a better discussion? Well fine. That’s all ANY of us are really arguing for. But that better discussion can’t be had between you and I. It has to be LED by people who suffer under racism, and we have to be willing to listen generously and be led by them. Anything short of that is ultimately (as Snee so eloquently put it) a stalling tactic - and I’m done being polite about those.
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Post by cousinlou on Jul 13, 2020 11:31:26 GMT
What would be good examples of barriers to success? In the US, in the south you had segregation of everything, separate and unequal: schools, public works, hotels, etc., In the South there were Jim Crow laws that made it difficult for blacks to vote by requiring various kinds of identification, payments and testing. They also forbid intermarriage of races. Throughout the US there was 'red-lining' which Identified whole swaths of cities, towns, neighborhoods that could not be sold to blacks and designated areas that could. During the 60s lots of urban renewal projects in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila, DC, etc., (highways, hospitals, parks, etc.,) were built right through, or in place of traditional black neighborhoods because they did not have the political/legal clout to resist. For those that could afford a house, banks and mortgage companies traditionally charged them higher processing fees and 2-5% higher on loan interest. Universal school testing that is specific to the predominant white culture that you have not been allowed to successfully participate in. Inner city schools are traditionally black and brown and are not as well funded as white suburban schools. Because of the Tuskegee experiment and forced sterilization from '20s-'50s there is a mistrust of the traditional white (male) medical establishment. The doctor who pioneered chemo therapy essentially did unsanctioned experiments and testing on the Puerto Rican population because he considered them "subhuman". This deep mistrust is apparent in black specific conspiracy theories about doctors, hospitals, medicine, mental health diagnosis, even Coca Cola. Just looking at Total graduate completions. 1996 White students 69.5% 2016 51.8% ( = - 25.5%)
1996 Black students 5.9% 2016 9.8% ( = + 66.1% )
In 2016, the US population consisted of 248.5 million White and 43 million Black people. Black people amounted to 17.3% of White people. In 2016, black student numbers were 18.9% of that of white students. if there were barriers this has led to an over representation of Black students vs White students against what the population mix would have suggested. www.acenet.edu/Research-Insights/Pages/Race-and-Ethnicity-in-Higher-Education.aspx
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