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Men
Nov 20, 2020 8:58:48 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 20, 2020 8:58:48 GMT
The stereotypical male of 50 years ago? worked down the pit, came home covered in muck and expected his tea to be on the table. Once wolfed down, he'd be off down the pub. That kind of scenario. Worked down the pit, got lung disease, died young (ie less than 65). Had a job for life, for sure, but the notion that his life was "easier" is an aberration. Yes, perhaps he might have been more set in "the ways of the world" and "what it is to be a man" and literally didn't have to think about such things because there wasn't the time to.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 9:04:23 GMT
tory likes this
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 9:04:23 GMT
Why not have a man's day to figure out what is the man's role in society? I don't know that it is discussed enough. Yeah. I mean, I laugh a bit at all these international days. It seems a bit excessive (Pride month, now?) but if it stimulates conversation and attention on problems men have then why not I guess. " oh but every day is international men's day Dougie!". I noticed Google didn't mark it even though they mark many other Days. At my work we didn't mention it on Twitter but we always celebrate international women's day. Look, I'm a MAN, I get some of the other things people say and I'm not up in arms and like, "Google, mark this bloody day!" but it does seem a bit inconsistent and I wonder why? Men aren't that bad! I often think we are SUPER
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 9:11:54 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 20, 2020 9:11:54 GMT
The stereotypical male of 50 years ago? worked down the pit, came home covered in muck and expected his tea to be on the table. Once wolfed down, he'd be off down the pub. That kind of scenario. That's not quite what I mean though. Easier to be "a man" in that the type of jobs enabled them to express their masculinity in satisfying ways. I think a lot of modern jobs don't scratch this itch which is part of the problem. The other stuff is traditional gender roles and attendant behaviour but then my folks were like that and it worked for them...the old man worked, my Mum looked after the house, tea was on the table etc. It's easy to mock more traditional gender roles but they also work for many people too. Yes it was the same at my home and nobody frowned at that. But underneath.......... my mom told me much later that she would have liked to have worked once the kids got older but that my dad was against it. We can only guess why he was but I think it has to do with fear of losing the role as sole provider and the 'status' he attached to that.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 9:23:21 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 20, 2020 9:23:21 GMT
On the opening post. I don't quit know what to think of it. Do men have to adopt 'typically female' qualities such as talking about feelings? I don't know but I think that whole idea about endlessly dissecting feelings is a bit overrated. But yes, maybe men should do that a bit more and women a bit less. Meet in the middle so to say.
When my first two children were born I only got two days off. I took another week from my paid days off ( 25/year in Holland) and after that worked a few weeks half days so all in all managed to spend a lot of time at home.
I cook, I clean up, do the laundry and take care of a lot of things around the house.
When in the mood, sure a bit of talking doesn't hurt. Just not every day, not about every tiny little subject and certainly not about the shit I've pulled in my wife's dreams.
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Post by DarknessFish on Nov 20, 2020 9:40:02 GMT
Where does this idea that women talk about their feelings come from? Has no man here ever heard the word fine?
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 9:43:50 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 20, 2020 9:43:50 GMT
There is, without doubt, a bit of an existential crisis going on in men, I'd agree. The liberalisation of sexual mores and attitudes caused a lot of this I think. In the sixties the sexual marketplace exploded and suddenly the whole edginess and rules of courting and actually making a bit of an effort to have a romance basically went out of the window. It didn't matter any more - you could fuck who you wanted and move on without much of a problem. The social stigma of that sort of activity applied much more to women than it did to men, and still does today. But then, at the same time, women in general I would argue, particularly in the bracket of the twenties and thirties when they are much more likely to be looking to be settled and start a family, are in the driving seat when it comes to picking men. And if you don't have a career, or a notion of what you are doing with your life, then you're not as likely to get married, pure and simple, and move onto the next phase. The simple fact is that the entrance of women into the workplace from the fifties and sixties onwards meant that it is now much harder to have a one parent working family. From anecdotal evidence I'd say that women are generally more likely to earn more than men in the workplace - yes, men earn more in finance and as CEOs but women are less likely to have issues like alcoholism for example. Most women I know are more efficacious and effective in the workplace. They are more career-driven now because, well, they have to be by the time they hit 30 when they are then going to have to leave the workplace temporarily. There is more pressure on women to "sort out" a career to absorb the "bump" they hit when they potentially start a family. When I worked in dating, this was plain to see. Men can sort of sail about a bit and drift because there isn't this arresting physical and cultural quandary in their lives that they have to think about. There is little or no expectation now for men to get married early (say early 20s) like there was even up the 80s. So, unless they have a career, then they drift. I did, for sure.
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Nov 20, 2020 10:15:23 GMT
Any attempt to understand or predict aspects of the behaviour and identity of individuals according to their membership of a group to which they have been ascribed by convention is bound to lead to misunderstandings and assumptions. It's not wrong as such to say 'men' are like this and 'women' are like that: stereotypes are an often useful way of discussing or framing 'issues', but it ultimately says very little or nothing about specific men or women.
This is basically the reason I quit my sociology doctorate and became an individualist anarchist autotheist. That and the drugs.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 10:27:12 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 20, 2020 10:27:12 GMT
The problem is though that attempts to reframe stereotypes and recalibrate the discussion in more helpful ways to get rid of that notion (which I agree with) can only be done through appealing to them, which then I guess just reinforce the issue.
There are a whole rash of groups and organisations that have emerged over the last 10 years dedicated to "men's mental health" or just to "men" for example.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 10:29:54 GMT
tory likes this
Post by DarknessFish on Nov 20, 2020 10:29:54 GMT
But underneath.......... my mom told me much later that she would have liked to have worked once the kids got older but that my dad was against it. We can only guess why he was but I think it has to do with fear of losing the role as sole provider and the 'status' he attached to that. There may have been an undercurrent of that. But in the era of Traditional Gender Roles (TM), it may not have been just the idea of breadwinner status, but also pleasure in the fact that he could also afford to provide his wife a comfortable living at home, where she didn't need to go out and earn. You have to factor in how much your mum could have earned going out working, too. If you had anything like my working class childhood, there wasn't exactly a career ladder waiting for working class women starting work after years bringing up kids. Was it worth going out there for a relative pittance, and coming home to the extra work and stress of housework?
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Post by cousinlou on Nov 20, 2020 11:26:27 GMT
But underneath.......... my mom told me much later that she would have liked to have worked once the kids got older but that my dad was against it. We can only guess why he was but I think it has to do with fear of losing the role as sole provider and the 'status' he attached to that. There may have been an undercurrent of that. But in the era of Traditional Gender Roles (TM), it may not have been just the idea of breadwinner status, but also pleasure in the fact that he could also afford to provide his wife a comfortable living at home, where she didn't need to go out and earn. You have to factor in how much your mum could have earned going out working, too. If you had anything like my working class childhood, there wasn't exactly a career ladder waiting for working class women starting work after years bringing up kids. Was it worth going out there for a relative pittance, and coming home to the extra work and stress of housework? I come from a lower working class family. No Car. No holidays. Meat on Sunday's only. Lemonade restricted to birthdays. Much later, my dad was able to better his income as he got a job where his boss let him do overwork/ weekend work that was paid 'black'. But that was much later when I was already 15 or so ( and the youngest of 4) and before that, extra money would have been welcome to the household. But quite apart from the purely materialistic aspect, I think working outside the house would have meant a lot to my mum in terms of contributing, self esteem and sense of independence
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Deleted
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 11:29:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 11:29:15 GMT
We're brilliant! MEN NUMBER 1! MEN NUMBER 1! MEN NUMBER 1! MEN NUMBER 1!
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 12:34:02 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 12:34:02 GMT
On the opening post. I don't quit know what to think of it. Do men have to adopt 'typically female' qualities such as talking about feelings? I don't know but I think that whole idea about endlessly dissecting feelings is a bit overrated. But yes, maybe men should do that a bit more and women a bit less. Meet in the middle so to say. Too much fuckin' yakkin these days. To paraphrase Tony Soprano...whatever happened to the strong, silent type? The Gary Cooper.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 13:04:15 GMT
Most of them guys were troubled and drank too much. If they opened up it might have helped them a little.
While i'm not paying too much attention, everyone and their dog has "a day" now, but for the men's day it seems to be (even before men's day) women wanted men to open up more, on men's day, men try to have serious conversations about mental health and checking your balls for lumps once a month.They get ridiculed by some women and men for having a day to promote men to open up, because all men are bastards and have too much 'power'. It's a vicious circle.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 13:09:13 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 13:09:13 GMT
Most of them guys were troubled and drank too much. If they opened up it might have helped them a little. While i'm not paying too much attention, everyone and their dog has "a day" now, but for the men's day it seems to be (even before men's day) women wanted men to open up more, on men's day, men try to have serious conversations about mental health and checking your balls for lumps once a month.They get ridiculed by some women and men for having a day to promote men to open up, because all men are bastards and have too much 'power'. It's a vicious circle. Defeated the Nazi's though.
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Deleted
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 13:13:40 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 13:13:40 GMT
Most of them guys were troubled and drank too much. If they opened up it might have helped them a little. While i'm not paying too much attention, everyone and their dog has "a day" now, but for the men's day it seems to be (even before men's day) women wanted men to open up more, on men's day, men try to have serious conversations about mental health and checking your balls for lumps once a month.They get ridiculed by some women and men for having a day to promote men to open up, because all men are bastards and have too much 'power'. It's a vicious circle. Defeated the Nazi's though. Aye but didn't open up about their experiences afterwards which not only affected them, but their families too.
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