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Post by daveythefatboy on Nov 20, 2020 17:07:20 GMT
Well that's on them as individuals. We don't pejoratively talk about women behaving in shitty ways as if this is related to their femininity. The inference here is that masculinity is "toxic" somehow at a very basic level and needs to be changed under the auspices of women, of course, rather than seeing people as individuals and basically arseholes behaving like arseholes. The issue, though, is that for whatever reason, its behavior that seems to spread in groups of men. And it's always directed against those viewed as less masculine, be it women, gay or trans men, or just physically smaller/weaker guys who don't have an "alpha" personality. And it's often enforced through violence. It's much more than just a few assholes here and there. Having gone to an all-boys' high school, having worked in a shipyard with an almost entirely male workforce, having just lived in modern society, it's obvious to me that it's an issue bigger than just a few isolated people. It really isn’t just a matter of individuals acting a certain way, because there’s a whole culture perpetuating it. I was watching the film version of MASH a few weeks ago, and it struck me how “shitty” the film’s treatment of “Hot Lips” Houlihan is. Famously, at one point they pull away the wall of the tent she’s showering in just to settle a bet on the color of her pubic hair. A crowd applauds. Bills are exchanged. The punchline comes in the next scene when she goes to complain breathlessly to her commanding officer. He is in bed with a silent-but-naked woman. They listen stoically as she rants that her treatment is his fault because he allows it. She threatens to resign her commission. His response is, “the God dammit Hotlips, resign your commission”. She is forced to slink away impotently. The point in recounting this is that it was an absolutely un-controversial scene in its time. I was a kid, and it was clear to me that she was the problem. She was wound too tight, and everyone else was cool. Why couldn’t she be cool too? It was THE comedy highlight of the film. Magnify that by every film you see and every book you read. These attitudes about gender were internalized. The scene in Animal House where Belushi is watching girls undress from an outside window. Or the scene in the same film where Tom Hulce comically decides whether or not to have sex with a passed-out girl. There were similar scenes in Porkys and Revenge of the Nerds and countless other films. None of which is meant to blame media representations for our attitudes. They were a reflection of attitudes that were out there. Those scenes all worked because they made implicit attitudes explicit in a way that felt liberating to men at the time. We’d all thought of those kinds of things (because the whole culture supported us in doing so) - but so refreshing to imagine a world where we could just let our freak flags fly and be high-fived for it. But then women had to ruin the whole thing by being uncool.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 17:40:31 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 17:40:31 GMT
Well that's on them as individuals. We don't pejoratively talk about women behaving in shitty ways as if this is related to their femininity. The inference here is that masculinity is "toxic" somehow at a very basic level and needs to be changed under the auspices of women, of course, rather than seeing people as individuals and basically arseholes behaving like arseholes. The issue, though, is that for whatever reason, its behavior that seems to spread in groups of men. And it's always directed against those viewed as less masculine, be it women, gay or trans men, or just physically smaller/weaker guys who don't have an "alpha" personality. And it's often enforced through violence. It's much more than just a few assholes here and there. Having gone to an all-boys' high school, having worked in a shipyard with an almost entirely male workforce, having just lived in modern society, it's obvious to me that it's an issue bigger than just a few isolated people. Group dynamics can be an ugly thing. Alpha males are often a bore in person but can also do magnificent things in life (you love the moon landings like me....alpha male writ large). Both sexes can be a pain in the arse when not tempered by the Other Lot but if you had men talking about women in this way, in such disparaging, generalised, hateful terms, you would naturally assume they were misogynist and yet so much of current discourse around gender is rooted in the flipside of this....from women and men. Masculinity is not the problem. "Toxic" or otherwise and those who claim it is, say more about themselves than the men they criticise.
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,564
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 17:45:28 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Nov 20, 2020 17:45:28 GMT
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 17:47:44 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 17:47:44 GMT
Were you good at sports, Snee?
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 17:53:17 GMT
Post by oh oooh on Nov 20, 2020 17:53:17 GMT
I was going to say something about the word heteronormative but a quick search reveals that Dougie is the only one to have used it!!
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,564
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Post by Sneelock on Nov 20, 2020 17:53:29 GMT
Is masturbating considered a sport?
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 18:00:14 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 18:00:14 GMT
You an Olympic champion too?
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,564
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 18:17:23 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Nov 20, 2020 18:17:23 GMT
I’m afraid not.
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Post by hippopotamus on Nov 20, 2020 18:40:19 GMT
Catching up on this thread got me pretty worked up.
Women do not earn more than men. They are not all about talking about their feelings. They do not have their pick of mates in their 30's. And misogyny is not something to just be brushed off.
To conflate arguments defending women's rights into something where men are being vilified is to completely lose the point.
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,564
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Post by Sneelock on Nov 20, 2020 18:45:00 GMT
sometimes it seems like losing the point is the point.
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~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 18:58:27 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Nov 20, 2020 18:58:27 GMT
The point is that international mens day is meant to be about men changing from stoicism and more traditional displays, or lack of, emotional 'fortitude' and getting in touch with their emotions etc. I think he makes an interesting point. It’s been established that men are three times more likely than women to commit suicide. As you would expect the reasons for this are complex, family breakdown, decline of male dominated industries and not surprisingly social expectations about masculinity. The suicide thing has to be nuanced a bit, women may actually attempt it more, but white males particularly are more effective in killing themselves.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 19:00:16 GMT
via mobile
nolamike likes this
Post by daveythefatboy on Nov 20, 2020 19:00:16 GMT
Masculinity is not the problem. "Toxic" or otherwise and those who claim it is, say more about themselves than the men they criticise. Really. What exactly is it “saying about myself” if I think toxic masculinity IS a problem?
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,564
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 19:10:13 GMT
rayge likes this
Post by Sneelock on Nov 20, 2020 19:10:13 GMT
It tells me that Moe Howard is NOT your favorite Stooge.
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Men
Nov 20, 2020 19:15:47 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 20, 2020 19:15:47 GMT
Catching up on this thread got me pretty worked up. Women do not earn more than men. They are not all about talking about their feelings. They do not have their pick of mates in their 30's. And misogyny is not something to just be brushed off. To conflate arguments defending women's rights into something where men are being vilified is to completely lose the point. Can you give me quoted examples of the above on this thread?
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Post by sloopjohnc on Nov 20, 2020 20:59:13 GMT
Is masturbating considered a sport? I'd consider myself semi-pro.
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