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Post by Charlie O. on Dec 7, 2020 17:38:29 GMT
if the court pleases, the defense would like to call to the stand a series of witnesses both vintage & current. Our aim is to show that such creatures do exist. This is the crux. Jagger was writing about women - "girls" - that he knew, or at least observed. Hardly anybody had written about such women - and such relationships - in such a way before. In retrospect, I think these songs, unflattering or downright cold-blooded though some of them may be, maybe started or contributed to a cultural conversation worth having. (Surely more than "nice" songs like "Ruby Tuesday" or "She's A Rainbow" have.) They aren't "the whole story," but... "the whole story" is a lot to ask of any songwriter, no?
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Sneelock
god
Ice Cream by night
Posts: 9,087
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Post by Sneelock on Dec 7, 2020 17:41:17 GMT
I like “grey gardens”. Some people think it was exploitative- I think it was a documentary. I like “grey gardens” but I can see why someone would feel that way.
Sure, if you think a song had no business being written I can respect that. I could live without “the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald”
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 7, 2020 17:43:49 GMT
But we are not talking about shopping and sunset, we are talking about a guy who feels hurt and feels it is okay to kill his girlfriend. The song is not in a vacuum it is built upon a huge body of rock/pop songs about men being aggrieved at women for hurting them (not just the blues tradition). The women have done the man wrong and she must pay. It plays into larger societal views of women and their rights and roles, some of which have not changed that much from the 50s60s70s, etc., and it is not hard to see it played out everyday in the news of women: mothers, sisters, grandmothers, young, old, etc., killed by men who feel aggrieved. One can put their head in the sand, minimize, etc., but societal norms are reflected and reinforced overtly and subliminally in what is allowed/tolerated in culture. So... if a new song came out that extended that cultural theme, perhaps it would make some sense to minimize its place in the culture. But the existence of Hey Joe as a cultural artifact would seem to be a useful clue in terms of understanding the times that inform it.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Dec 7, 2020 18:01:50 GMT
But we are not talking about shopping and sunset, we are talking about a guy who feels hurt and feels it is okay to kill his girlfriend. The song is not in a vacuum it is built upon a huge body of rock/pop songs about men being aggrieved at women for hurting them (not just the blues tradition). The women have done the man wrong and she must pay. It plays into larger societal views of women and their rights and roles, some of which have not changed that much from the 50s60s70s, etc., and it is not hard to see it played out everyday in the news of women: mothers, sisters, grandmothers, young, old, etc., killed by men who feel aggrieved. One can put their head in the sand, minimize, etc., but societal norms are reflected and reinforced overtly and subliminally in what is allowed/tolerated in culture. I thought the same thing but didn't want to get into that. Hip-hop is an extension of that, which I find interesting because lots of those guys were raised by women in single-parent households.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 18:24:57 GMT
writing teachers say to write about what you know. the Beach Boys wrote songs about cars. the Stones wrote songs about stupid groupies. I don't think it's that straightforward. To some extent it was within the language of pop and they were taking generic themes. But you only need to compare them to their peers - who presumably also had groupies - to see they took it further and returned to this kind of lyric much more than The Who, Kinks or Beatles say. They did it for the macho swagger, and Sloop is right to say it comes from the blues, which they thought was cool. It's a black mark against them, but if I'm honest it doesn't stop me enjoying the songs which are so catchy you can get immersed into them while not really taking in the lyrics. The one I have most difficulty with is Backstreet Girl because it's a ballad and the lyrics are more upfront and harder to ignore. There's just a nastiness to it, which is a shame because it's a lovely melody.
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 7, 2020 18:42:51 GMT
writing teachers say to write about what you know. the Beach Boys wrote songs about cars. the Stones wrote songs about stupid groupies. I don't think it's that straightforward. To some extent it was within the language of pop and they were taking generic themes. But you only need to compare them to their peers - who presumably also had groupies - to see they took it further and returned to this kind of lyric much more than The Who, Kinks or Beatles say. They did it for the macho swagger, and Sloop is right to say it comes from the blues, which they thought was cool. It's a black mark against them, but if I'm honest it doesn't stop me enjoying the songs which are so catchy you can get immersed into them while not really taking in the lyrics. The one I have most difficulty with is Backstreet Girl because it's a ballad and the lyrics are more upfront and harder to ignore. There's just a nastiness to it, which is a shame because it's a lovely melody.
I dunno. I love Backstreet Girl. It doesn’t bother me at all. I guess the question I would ask is: What do you think about the way the guy in that song is being presented? Maybe it is a bit of a Rorschach test, but I’ve always heard the song as a condemnation of him. Is a portrait of misogyny the same as misogyny itself?
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Sneelock
god
Ice Cream by night
Posts: 9,087
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Post by Sneelock on Dec 7, 2020 18:43:23 GMT
I don't think it's a black mark against them. I mean, not compared to something like the "I'm black and blue by the Rolling Stones" ad in the 70's. maybe one thing led to the other - I'll go that far.
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Post by Charlie O. on Dec 7, 2020 18:46:09 GMT
The one I have most difficulty with is Backstreet Girl because it's a ballad and the lyrics are more upfront and harder to ignore. There's just a nastiness to it, which is a shame because it's a lovely melody. I think it's a story song, a character study a la the sort of thing Randy Newman would shortly be getting up to. I don't believe Mick really had a "backstreet girl," or would have talked to her so condescendingly if he had.
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 18:46:19 GMT
They reassessed their stance after hearing 'Getting Better'
I used to be mean to my woman I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved
man I was mean BUT I'M CHANGING MY SCENE
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Post by Charlie O. on Dec 7, 2020 18:46:46 GMT
Or what davey said.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 19:13:26 GMT
The one I have most difficulty with is Backstreet Girl because it's a ballad and the lyrics are more upfront and harder to ignore. There's just a nastiness to it, which is a shame because it's a lovely melody. I think it's a story song, a character study a la the sort of thing Randy Newman would shortly be getting up to. I don't believe Mick really had a "backstreet girl," or would have talked to her so condescendingly if he had. I wasn't mistaking it for a documentary! I don't see the kind of detachment in the lyric to indicate it's a portrait of a misogynist as Davey suggests. That seems a bit of an excuse to me. The song doesn't exhibit the kind of self-awareness to indicate that.
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Post by fonz on Dec 7, 2020 19:17:05 GMT
I won’t let my boy listen to ‘Fire’ by Hendrix because I worry he might be inspired to stand next to a fire, and get burnt. Jimi was setting a bad example there.
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Post by Charlie O. on Dec 7, 2020 19:20:10 GMT
I think it's a story song, a character study a la the sort of thing Randy Newman would shortly be getting up to. I don't believe Mick really had a "backstreet girl," or would have talked to her so condescendingly if he had. I wasn't mistaking it for a documentary! I don't see the kind of detachment in the lyric to indicate it's a portrait of a misogynist as Davey suggests. That seems a bit of an excuse to me. The song doesn't exhibit the kind of self-awareness to indicate that. Please don't you bother my wife That way you won't get no help Don't try to ride on my horse You're rather common and coarse anyway ... Please never ring on the phone Your manners are never quite right Please take the favors I grant Curtsy and look nonchalant, just for me
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 19:25:11 GMT
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Post by *LORD 'X'* on Dec 7, 2020 19:27:01 GMT
Zep, Stones, Bowie, Lennon, Zappa, Neil - any major 60s/70s male stars who DIDN'T demonstrate misogyny on occasion?
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