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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 13:18:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 13:18:45 GMT
I don't fully understand some of your points there. Why is it important that the Lennon of 1961 might not have agreed with Imagine or the peace campaign. I didn't say it was important, just that the Lennon of 1961 probably had his feet on the ground more than the Lennon of ten years later. Therefore, just possibly, was a bit more in touch with reality and just possibly talked a bit more sense. The Lennon of 1961 was a violent, confused mess so I'm not sure why we'd have a more sensible take on things and there's all sorts of things the Lennon of 1961 wouldn't have done, he wouldn't have written "I Am The Walrus" either, but that hardly devalues the song. |
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Dec 10, 2020 14:22:37 GMT
He hadn't taken any acid in 1961
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 14:22:40 GMT
Post by ~ / % ? * on Dec 10, 2020 14:22:40 GMT
Lennon was a pretty cynical guy, I always took Imagine ironically. (Millennials did not invent irony) Viet Nam converted many to that point of view. I don't get that from it I have to say Are we expected to believe Give Peace A Chance was ironic too? He was sincere but I suspect he needed to suspend his disbelief somewhat to deliver the message. I mean given the video I think we can say John was maybe lost in his own world a bit (see also Two Virgins for evidence of John becoming somewhat untethered from reality). He was caught up in a cultural moment and threw himself into that sorta thing, as was his style, but I'm sure it went against some of his more cynical, natural instincts and it may have been rooted in some kind of psychological repudiation of his "former" violent self hence all the peace stuff. Also Yoko's influence was key (again, the power seems to flow from her to him and may have been in response to his previous, "dominant" relations with women). They brought out some of the worst in each other I reckon, at least artistically anyway. I guess I see it as a furtherance of his deconstruction of the Beatle myth that Life with Lions, Two Virgins, etc., were all part of. How an artist meant something and how listeners receive it can be two very different things, the average knucklehead loves Springsteen's Born In the USA as a jingoistic anthem, missing all the irony and they don't even have the benefit of Beatle goggles. |
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 14:39:32 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 14:39:32 GMT
He hadn't taken any acid in 1961 Isn't that exactly the point though. All sorts of things had happened both in the world and especially in his own life since 1961 to bring him to the point where he did the peace campaigning in 69/70. So why use the context of 1961 to judge it? |
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 14:58:56 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 10, 2020 14:58:56 GMT
I don't get that from it I have to say Are we expected to believe Give Peace A Chance was ironic too? He was sincere but I suspect he needed to suspend his disbelief somewhat to deliver the message. I mean given the video I think we can say John was maybe lost in his own world a bit (see also Two Virgins for evidence of John becoming somewhat untethered from reality). He was caught up in a cultural moment and threw himself into that sorta thing, as was his style, but I'm sure it went against some of his more cynical, natural instincts and it may have been rooted in some kind of psychological repudiation of his "former" violent self hence all the peace stuff. Also Yoko's influence was key (again, the power seems to flow from her to him and may have been in response to his previous, "dominant" relations with women). They brought out some of the worst in each other I reckon, at least artistically anyway. I guess I see it as a furtherance of his deconstruction of the Beatle myth that Life with Lions, Two Virgins, etc., were all part of. How an artist meant something and how listeners receive it can be two very different things, the average knucklehead loves Springsteen's Born In the USA as a jingoistic anthem, missing all the irony and they don't even have the benefit of Beatle goggles. How very post modern. Born in The USA tricked people who probably don't listen to lyrics that much and who were fooled by the jingoistic music. I don't see Imagine as ironic in that way. Musically and lyrically it chimes and the sentiment seems genuine to me anyway. Did Lennon ever suggest it was more ironic? |
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:01:37 GMT
Post by sloopjohnc on Dec 10, 2020 15:01:37 GMT
The first records I remember having in our house were Hard Day's Night and Peter and the Wolf. My parents, who were pretty conservative were considered the cool aunt and uncle just by having that Beatles' album.
One day my dad brought home a 45, which he never did. It was Happy Xmas, War is Over. Thinking back on it, I was shocked my Republican ex-Marine steel company working dad would do this.
One of my jobs was putting the kids to bed. I'd read Harry Potter and then sing them songs. For my daughter, it was Should Have Known Better. For my son, it was this.
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:04:12 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:04:12 GMT
Imagine is shite. Gal Gadot enforced it there a few months back.
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:09:45 GMT
Post by sloopjohnc on Dec 10, 2020 15:09:45 GMT
Imagine is shite. Gal Gadot enforced it there a few months back. I really like Chris Cornell's version. |
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:13:31 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 10, 2020 15:13:31 GMT
Imagine is shite. Gal Gadot enforced it there a few months back. Oooof. Was that an embarrassment or what. I used to like Sarah Silverman too but she's just another idiotic celebrity type. Hollywood actors eh? Just the worst. |
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rayge
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:21:01 GMT
Post by rayge on Dec 10, 2020 15:21:01 GMT
He hadn't taken any acid in 1961 Isn't that exactly the point though. All sorts of things had happened both in the world and especially in his own life since 1961 to bring him to the point where he did the peace campaigning in 69/70. So why use the context of 1961 to judge it? Precisely my point, yes - I was agreeing with you, G!
Best go and have a lie down, shock can be a difficult pancake.
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:25:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:25:23 GMT
Isn't that exactly the point though. All sorts of things had happened both in the world and especially in his own life since 1961 to bring him to the point where he did the peace campaigning in 69/70. So why use the context of 1961 to judge it? Precisely my point, yes - I was agreeing with you, G!
Best go and have a lie down, shock can be a difficult pancake.
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:26:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:26:14 GMT
Imagine is shite. Gal Gadot enforced it there a few months back. Oooof. Was that an embarrassment or what. I used to like Sarah Silverman too but she's just another idiotic celebrity type. Hollywood actors eh? Just the worst. Never liked silverman for some reason. McConaughey is bucking the trend, bless him. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:29:12 GMT
One of my jobs was putting the kids to bed. I'd read Harry Potter and then sing them songs. For my daughter, it was Should Have Known Better. For my son, it was this. I would've chosen 'Beat on the Brat' by The Ramones..probably a good job I'm not a dad! |
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Lennon
Dec 10, 2020 15:39:22 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 10, 2020 15:39:22 GMT
Oooof. Was that an embarrassment or what. I used to like Sarah Silverman too but she's just another idiotic celebrity type. Hollywood actors eh? Just the worst. Never liked silverman for some reason. McConaughey is bucking the trend, bless him. McConaughey seems like a cool guy I have to say. Texas ya see. Real people come from there. |
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Post by daveythefatboy on Dec 10, 2020 16:45:34 GMT
I don't fully understand some of your points there. Why is it important that the Lennon of 1961 might not have agreed with Imagine or the peace campaign. I didn't say it was important, just that the Lennon of 1961 probably had his feet on the ground more than the Lennon of ten years later. Therefore, just possibly, was a bit more in touch with reality and just possibly talked a bit more sense. Anyway it just seems that people are determined to make allowances for him when it comes to this 'peace' business. I just think it's a bit silly. I tried to get some 'Beatle flaws' thing going here earlier in the year but was faced with Davey who said at one point 'well yeah I COULD think of some things that were bad about the Beatles - but why SHOULD I?'. And that's what you're up against. Hey... I started a whole thread for Beatle-scrutiny just to make you happy. But apparently that wasn’t enough, and I still don’t know WHY you think it would be satisfying to you. Should we have threads about how ‘meh’ the northern lights are? The flaws in the Grand Canyon? How ‘the miracle of childbirth’ is kind of overrated? I mean... we could. Imagine there’s no appreciation of wonder left in the world. It’s easy if you try. I can picture how frustrated it probably makes you to read that. You wish you could get me to see The Beatles the way you do. You think that I imbue them with something that’s not actually there, and you’d like people like me to see them as realistically as you do. But fuck that. I choose magic. And to extend the point - I think that was the aim of the whole bag-thing and of songs like Imagine. They added up to a spectacularly successful ad campaign geared towards changing our thinking. Here it is 40 years since Lennon died, and he’s still got us wrestling with our own idealism. What was ‘naive’ about getting a generation to do that? |
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