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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 15:08:36 GMT
Not like you folks have ever been shy . . .
Last Friday, I was at a minor league baseball game with the woman I used to go out with. We're just friends now.
I was telling her a story I saw on Reddit where a person had a neighbor who had a confederate flag hanging outside the front of their house.
I told my friend my views on the confederate flag, that essentially you're proud to show you're a racist.
She spent a long time of her life in the south and she said it means more than that.
I said that may be true in the south, but everywhere else it shows you're racist. Even if you don't feel that way, you should understand the ramifications it means to other people.
She continued to argue in this anonymous person's favor, by saying, "I try not to be judgmental." I said I thought that kind of attitude is a cop-out and if I can be judgmental about anything, it's the confederate flag.
I then told her I had been listening to a podcast with a Black noir mystery writer who was from Virginia who was telling the interviewer he went to a high school named after two confederate generals Lee-Jackson, like one wasn't enough, that there was a rebel soldier statue outside the county courthouse, metaphorically aligning the concepts of justice (and injustice) and that he had always been taught in school that the Civil War was a war of northern aggression, not over slavery.
This woman has a masters degree in architecture and is pretty progressive. I couldn't believe how willfully naïve or ignorant she was being on this point.
When I was growing up, the confederate flag was a pervasive symbol of white southerners - Dukes of Hazard, Lynyrd Skynyrd, all over the place. But now it's less accepted and they're tearing down confederate statues.
I was close to telling this person that, but held back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2023 15:20:01 GMT
Flags and symbols are a tough one in some incidents. It's not always straight forward.
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 15:26:52 GMT
See…this is what the whole “” analogy about waking up is getting at.
Her conviction that she’s not wanting to be judgmental is ultimately a conviction to not being discerning. It accepts the idea that the normative (whatever seems normal where she comes from) is neutral. So when you point out the racism embedded in it, she sees YOU as making an issue where one doesn’t exist.
If she was willing to broaden her perspective (ie: wake up), she might see that ‘normal’ isn’t actually neutral to everyone. A black person living where she came from might be taking a completely different message other than vague Southern pride from all of these flags. But of course, when they say so…they are the ones making a problem. Because again… normal is neutral.
It’s hardwired into us.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Aug 3, 2023 15:42:31 GMT
I said that may be true in the south, but everywhere else it shows you're racist. Even if you don't feel that way, you should understand the ramifications it means to other people.
I'm sure she does understand after your lecture but she has a different pov and she, presumably, knows her neighbour which you, presumably don't.
I would suggest "agree to disagree" and simply move on. It's hardly worth potentially spoiling a friendship over.
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Post by fearlessfreap on Aug 3, 2023 15:44:23 GMT
It's racist. There are many other ways to show pride in being from the south without resorting to something that denotes both slavery and sedation. Fly an American flag if you feel the need to fly a flag, or a flag from the country of your ancestors. There isn't a single person in this country who doesn't know what that flag means to a great number of people, they're just being antagonistic, especially in a state that wasn't part of the confederacy. I had a kid in my high school who wore a confederate flag belt buckle and spoke with a southern accent despite the fact that he spent his entire life to that point in New York. In his case, he thought he was being a bad ass, Skynyrd, and all that. He was stupid enough that I don't think he ever gave the racism angle any thought, though I would imagine he was a racist as well. This was before the southern states belatedly thought that maybe something that symbolized something a sizable percentage of their populace may have historic issues with and removed it from their state flags. Today, there is no reason to fly a confederate flag, especially in the north, other than to show that you hate black people.
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 15:45:38 GMT
P.S. Excuse me for potentially over-explaining shit like “normative.” There might be a few folks less clear on the terminology. Don’t mean to condescend.
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
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Post by toomanyhatz on Aug 3, 2023 15:59:59 GMT
Ooh, I can hardly wait for...certain poster's views on this.
Here's my take - It's too pat to say that you're identifying yourself as a racist by flying that particular flag? You are certainly willing to be referred to (or thought of) as a racist by flying it. It's a confrontational act. To the argument that it's a conversation-starter, well...it's not exactly a conversation attempted in good faith, is it? If you feel that strongly about your southern identity, please - come over with biscuits and gravy and tell me your whole story. I'll listen. Otherwise it's just a giant 'fuck you' to everyone in the neighborhood, regardless of race. There for no other purpose than to further division between people while you argue that it's 'not about race.'
Tom Petty flew it in a very specific context of being on tour to support his 'Southern Accents' tour. To him, I suspect (at least at the time), it was just iconography that represented the south. But he later regretted it, probably because he realized what any sensible person realizes. That it's a symbol for a group that does not exist anymore, that was defeated in its attempts to separate. So a person identifying themselves using that symbol is, even if they don't consider themselves a racist (they never do), saying that things would be better if we could go back to that time.
It's a damned ugly flag besides.
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Sneelock
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Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 3, 2023 16:01:25 GMT
Today, there is no reason to fly a confederate flag, especially in the north, other than to show that you hate black people. ...and The United States of America. my mind still boggles at people who carry both flags. I mean, what the actual fuck?
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 16:03:56 GMT
How did your friend dismiss your story about the writer? Did she engage at all?
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 3, 2023 16:06:24 GMT
I remember a pretty great BCB thread with very thoughtful input from kath and nolamike. kath, as I remember, tried to make the case that not everybody who grew up with it sees it the way we do. it's a fair point which she expressed well. still, I saw it the way I did. I just saw that great James Baldwin doc. that footage of white protesters snarling at bussed students and freedom marchers is the way I saw it. so, when I see it now, that's the way I think about it. I think the people in little red hats know this when they go to the flag store to get one.
I get the whole "southern pride" thing but I do think that flag belongs in the racism museum with the statures. I do NOT get how a flag for the Confederacy is not, by it's very definition, a flag that is routinely perceived as Anti-American. the way the road has risen to coddle the post war south strikes me as some of the most spineless chapters in my country's history.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 16:15:59 GMT
How did your friend dismiss your story about the writer? Did she engage at all? She didn't. My point was that the flag meant something completely different to the oppressed population that was subjugated and enslaved for 400 FUCKING years. I was talking to my daughter about the incident - my daughter thinks I'm a Republican and I think I have pretty progressive views. As I mentioned, this woman has a pretty politically progressive point of view and is really down for women's rights. I pointed this out to my daughter and she said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Yeah, I bet she's down for women's rights, but white women's rights for college educated women like her." I had never thought about it that way, but she was right. I had never thought about it that way. That her view of women's rights was a bit myopic in its panorama. As Tip O'Neill said, "All politics are local," and that extends to how it affects you, your friends and family or people you identify with. I don't know if this comment will affect our friendship. A couple weeks ago, we were discussing our past relationship on a walk and I said, "I basically lost out to a vibrator." This is not the most offensive thing I've said.
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 3, 2023 16:19:31 GMT
I'm surprised we haven't all lost that war. I mean, think about it.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 16:19:54 GMT
Tom Petty flew it in a very specific context of being on tour to support his 'Southern Accents' tour. To him, I suspect (at least at the time), it was just iconography that represented the south. But he later regretted it, probably because he realized what any sensible person realizes. That it's a symbol for a group that does not exist anymore, that was defeated in its attempts to separate. So a person identifying themselves using that symbol is, even if they don't consider themselves a racist (they never do), saying that things would be better if we could go back to that time. It's a damned ugly flag besides. I was really surprised when Petty did that. As a guy who'd been "Californiaized" for years, it struck me funny. I didn't think he associated himself so personally with the south even though he's from Florida. Not a ton of his songs reference the south. Some do - like Louisiana Rain and some others, but he didn't think he felt so strongly about it. I felt better when he regretted it too, but this was the main symbol you used on a whole tour? You'd think his management or fellow band members would have said, "I dunno, Tom."
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 16:20:25 GMT
I'm surprised we haven't all lost that war. I mean, think about it. Don't think I didn't think that.
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 16:21:42 GMT
I remember a pretty great BCB thread with very thoughtful input from kath and nolamike. kath, as I remember, tried to make the case that not everybody who grew up with it sees it the way we do. it's a fair point which she expressed well. still, I saw it the way I did.. I have zero doubt that a LOT of folks see it in benign terms. THAT is what is so insidious about it. It simultaneously blows a big ugly dog-whistle for those who know the history, and whitewashes that history for everyone else by being allowed to be seen as ‘just an expression of southern pride.’ Displaying a hate symbol with good intentions isn’t really justifiable. As soon as someone tells you what they take from it and you choose not to listen, your intent can no longer be accepted as well-meaning.
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