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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 18:39:39 GMT
I suspect, like many things of a symbolic nature, that it means different things to different people, and that the emblazoned flag flown by some people and why they fly it means something different to others. I watched this series by Peter Santanello on Appalachia and found it extremely interesting - he has a disarming way of talking to real people and getting to know them without shrill judgement. I suspect many of the people he interviews would probably "fly" the confederate flag as an identity trope, or perhaps, have some cultural attachment to its symbolic nature. However, many of them came across as fundamentally decent people. I buy “fundamentally decent” right up to the point where someone points out to to them what the flag communicates and they decide to dig their heels in.
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Post by tory on Aug 3, 2023 18:55:21 GMT
Watch the series and see what you think.
Whitewashing a vast area of the country with a particular perspective or mindset seems to me to be a process that doesn't get anyone anywhere regardless of how bad you think they are.
If we were to take another "terrible" symbol, I guess the obvious one is the Swastika. It was a symbol that was adopted wholesale by the German people after the Nazi party were elected democratically. The majority of people chose the Swastika and what it represented. So, after the cataclysmic denouement of the Second World War, the symbol was destroyed symbolically because it stood for something that was obviously catastrophic for the whole country and definitively symbolised something that was pure evil. There was an element of a definitive narrative for everything about the symbol, its purpose and what it stood for. The German people had to, essentially, completely reject it en masse and were forced to confront a new identity for themselves, particularly as they were under occupation from both American and Soviet forces.
I don't know if that is the case for the Confederacy and the Flag itself. I'm not as clued up on Reconstruction politics and its success as I'd like to be. It was obviously enormously complex and a vast undertaking. I'm not sure how you can really expect to cleanse or purge a particular identity successfully, particularly if it is one that is cloaked or laced with a vast amount of resentment.
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 19:59:26 GMT
You guys DO get that comparisons to the swastika aren’t really helping your argument, don’t you?
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toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,243
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Post by toomanyhatz on Aug 3, 2023 20:12:43 GMT
I don't know if that is the case for the Confederacy and the Flag itself. I'm not as clued up on Reconstruction politics and its success as I'd like to be. It was obviously enormously complex and a vast undertaking. I'm not sure how you can really expect to cleanse or purge a particular identity successfully, particularly if it is one that is cloaked or laced with a vast amount of resentment. You can't really cleanse or purge an identity successfully. But 160 years should be long enough to not continue to lend it validation. You hear it VERY commonly expressed that it's plenty of time for descendants of slaves to 'get over it,' anyway.
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Post by davey on Aug 3, 2023 20:49:18 GMT
I could change my name on the board to “Toby is a Big Fat Nazi” and claim that that phrase is an expression of my pride as a Preludiner. There’s a lot of grey area, and you really can’t know what usernames and symbols mean to an individual.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 20:51:47 GMT
You guys DO get that comparisons to the swastika aren’t really helping your argument, don’t you? To paraphrase the Blues Brothers, "I hate Lancashire Nazis."
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 20:55:54 GMT
I could change my name on the board to “Toby is a Big Fat Nazi” and claim that that phrase is an expression of my pride as a Preludiner. There’s a lot of grey area, and you really can’t know what usernames and symbols mean to an individual. I'm sure Toby will appreciate your geographic and cultural deference in spelling gray with an "e."
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 3, 2023 21:35:04 GMT
I don't know if that is the case for the Confederacy and the Flag itself. I'm not as clued up on Reconstruction politics and its success as I'd like to be. It was obviously enormously complex and a vast undertaking. I'm not sure how you can really expect to cleanse or purge a particular identity successfully, particularly if it is one that is cloaked or laced with a vast amount of resentment. Reconstruction was beginning to look successful until Black folk got uppity and started owning property and getting voted into Congress. That led to the rise of the KKK in 1868. They'd formed in 1866, but it was very loosely based until black folks started making economic and political inroads. Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson, was southern and an out-and-out racist. Lincoln made him part of the ticket to placate the south. Lincoln's first vice president was from Maine and an outspoken abolitionist. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if Hannibal Hamlin had continued on as VP. Way better name than Andrew Johnson too. Lynching, driving people off their lands and burning down houses can be quite the demotivator.
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Post by adamcoan on Aug 4, 2023 7:57:42 GMT
Said every native American.
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Post by Stacy Heydon on Aug 4, 2023 8:10:18 GMT
Adamcoan?
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 4, 2023 8:32:58 GMT
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Aug 4, 2023 8:52:54 GMT
Have we ran out of body fluids yet?
Can Sloop not go away and impale some horny widow instead?
Can Davey, Hatz, Snee et al go see a psychiatrist?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2023 9:15:58 GMT
I suspect, like many things of a symbolic nature, that it means different things to different people, and that the emblazoned flag flown by some people and why they fly it means something different to others. I watched this series by Peter Santanello on Appalachia and found it extremely interesting - he has a disarming way of talking to real people and getting to know them without shrill judgement. I suspect many of the people he interviews would probably "fly" the confederate flag as an identity trope, or perhaps, have some cultural attachment to its symbolic nature. However, many of them came across as fundamentally decent people. I'd say if most didn't know about the flag they'd see a lot of these people as good people. It's like you said different things to different people. I'm guessing these people don't really give the flag a second thought, until it's mentioned. Even then with the yanks so divided, they probably just roll their eyes.
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Post by davey on Aug 4, 2023 14:37:15 GMT
Almost all people can be seen as good people if someone wants to make a documentary that is sympathetic to them. I’m not sure where you guys think you’re going with this salt-of-the-earth shit.
I’m not gonna give this documentary an hour of my life, but I have personal experience of West Virginia. The folks I met when I was there as a touring musician were all lovely as can be. Hatz can tell you (he was with me). We arrived in town and were immediately offered a place to stay, fed, taken horseback riding. Even taken to the circus. In fact, I’ll never forget the drive out to the circus. On the way over we passed a building that was clearly marked as an office of the Ku Klux Klan. It actually had signage. Hatz… remember that?
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Post by sloopjohnc on Aug 4, 2023 15:12:00 GMT
I like those Peter Santanello documentaries for what they are. I just watched one about people living in a little California town in Death Valley. He gets some of his facts and history wrong so I'm thinking he should do a little more upfront research. If I can spot the mistakes, he's got some cleaning up to do.
I originally wrote they were living off the grid, but they had Internet.
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