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Post by oh oooh on Aug 4, 2022 9:54:43 GMT
A couple of years ago a school in Brighton (a city with a significant gay population and left-leaning liberal perspective) had around 75 students in total who identified as "trans". A huge example of social contagion. In 2010 the number of children being referred to the Gender Identity Development service per week was 2. In 2018 it had risen by 2500% to 50. OK, but doesn't that have something to do with the fact that it's easier nowadays to talk about these things? People's awareness has increased, you're more likely to get a sensitive, understanding response to your feelings? That might account for some of the increase in numbers.
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Post by oh oooh on Aug 4, 2022 9:56:27 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? A man can have some of the outward physical characteristics of a woman after hormone therapy and significant surgery, but has xy chromosomes because they were born a man and vice versa. Often with discussions of this nature, acknowledging this basic fact of science seems to be ignored. You may be right, but how is that relevant to someone who desperately feels the need to change? 'we can help you with the surgery - BUT YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A MAN!'
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Post by osgood on Aug 4, 2022 10:17:58 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? A man can have some of the outward physical characteristics of a woman after hormone therapy and significant surgery, but has xy chromosomes because they were born a man and vice versa. Often with discussions of this nature, acknowledging this basic fact of science seems to be ignored. Things aren't always so clear. This is an extreme example, recently come to the front page because of Caster Semenya but Intersex does exist and even with the most conservative estimation it does affect to more than 1 million people. And of course there is the gender/sex discussion, which contributes to enlarge the grey area.
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Post by tory on Aug 4, 2022 11:22:15 GMT
Intersex only affects genetic males - as the article states, it never affects genetic females.
They are still male; they just may have been raised as a girl due to various conditions such as Hypospasia and Micropenis.
I'm fully aware that it is not cut and dried. There are outliers and exceptions that contribute to the discussion.
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Post by tory on Aug 4, 2022 11:33:54 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? A man can have some of the outward physical characteristics of a woman after hormone therapy and significant surgery, but has xy chromosomes because they were born a man and vice versa. Often with discussions of this nature, acknowledging this basic fact of science seems to be ignored. You may be right, but how is that relevant to someone who desperately feels the need to change? 'we can help you with the surgery - BUT YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A MAN!' Oh for sure. But with all distinctions of this nature, there can be significant legal ramifications over someone deciding to change their identity in terms of gender. Ultimately, for me, this is the kernel of the issue. I'm very much of the "be who you want to be as long it doesn't affect or hurt anyone else" mould. If someone decides that they want to be Kathy instead of Keith, then rock on. However, liberal attitudes towards things are generally no problem if the red lines remain invisible and unseen. Ultimately, when the battle for gay and lesbian rights was being fought in the latter part of the 20th century, conservatives saw red lines. Deep down, there were no red lines because, well, gays and lesbians lived lives that ultimately didn't affect anyone else. The issue with the trans debate is that the right of men to switch genders to women and self-identify as such fundamentally affects women. We see it in the sporting arena. No-one saw this coming because liberal attitudes were "well, everyone should have the right to be and do what they want within reason". Because many charged on ahead, helped by a willing medical community that said "sure, we'll do that for you, no problem", things weren't discussed perhaps in the manner that they should have been. However, I feel that, at least in the UK, there is a discussion or dialogue in public discourse that isn't framed in "phobia" and the like. People who are hesitant or unsure about these things are being framed as "transphobic", when in fact they're just processing what is, in many ways, a fundamentally revolutionary idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 12:00:36 GMT
A couple of years ago a school in Brighton (a city with a significant gay population and left-leaning liberal perspective) had around 75 students in total who identified as "trans". A huge example of social contagion. In 2010 the number of children being referred to the Gender Identity Development service per week was 2. In 2018 it had risen by 2500% to 50. OK, but doesn't that have something to do with the fact that it's easier nowadays to talk about these things? People's awareness has increased, you're more likely to get a sensitive, understanding response to your feelings? That might account for some of the increase in numbers. I'm sure that's true, and I think Toby acknowledges that in noting that it happened in a city that's far more socially progressive than most British cities. Still, it's an abnormally high number and so can be seen as a valid example of a social contagion. The question is, as Hatz mentions in his opening post, is whether it's just a trend, like flirting with bisexuality was in the early 80s.
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Post by tory on Aug 4, 2022 12:26:20 GMT
A friend of mine is a paediatrician. He tells me that there is an ongoing discussion in his part of the medical community over people with developmental issues such as autism and other conditions who are swarming towards the idea of "trans" because there's something approaching a full blown personality reset. If you've grown up with conditions such as autism, you're going to struggle pure and simple. It's a difficult condition that usually results in few friends in a physical sense, because, well, you just don't have the ability to process the cues that make social interaction easier. Furthermore, with the rise of ideas such as "transphobia", being "trans" or "non-binary" allows you, to a certain extent, particularly in the last few years, something approaching a protected status. There's the promise of a "community", when in fact the reality is that none of these communities exist in the same way as a tangible real life one - they're online only and have the appearance of one. When people talk about the "LBQTIA community" it disguises the truth that these things really do not exist in any meaningful way at all. In fact, in reality, as Douglas Murray has observed, most of them dislike each other. Many Lesbians seem to dislike Trans people, Gays dislike Lesbians and whatever. It is very much not the rainbow-coloured Utopia that is depicted. Like, Preludin is a "community" where we hang out online, but would we be able to do something really meaningful for someone in a physical sense? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is very much not the same. I fucked off for six months and no-one noticed for example! The extent to which a political pressure group such as Pride can push its influence has reached the British Police. Since when did any other political group get to sponsor the Police?
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Post by cousinlou on Aug 4, 2022 13:00:42 GMT
A friend of mine is a paediatrician. He tells me that there is an ongoing discussion in his part of the medical community over people with developmental issues such as autism and other conditions who are swarming towards the idea of "trans" because there's something approaching a full blown personality reset. If you've grown up with conditions such as autism, you're going to struggle pure and simple. It's a difficult condition that usually results in few friends in a physical sense, because, well, you just don't have the ability to process the cues that make social interaction easier. Furthermore, with the rise of ideas such as "transphobia", being "trans" or "non-binary" allows you, to a certain extent, particularly in the last few years, something approaching a protected status. There's the promise of a "community", when in fact the reality is that none of these communities exist in the same way as a tangible real life one - they're online only and have the appearance of one. When people talk about the "LBQTIA community" it disguises the truth that these things really do not exist in any meaningful way at all. In fact, in reality, as Douglas Murray has observed, most of them dislike each other. Many Lesbians seem to dislike Trans people, Gays dislike Lesbians and whatever. It is very much not the rainbow-coloured Utopia that is depicted. Like, Preludin is a "community" where we hang out online, but would we be able to do something really meaningful for someone in a physical sense? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is very much not the same. I fucked off for six months and no-one noticed for example! The extent to which a political pressure group such as Pride can push its influence has reached the British Police. Since when did any other political group get to sponsor the Police? preludin.proboards.com/thread/5997/return-glimmer-twins
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Post by Markus on Aug 4, 2022 13:02:30 GMT
I think recommending someone to have a few therapy sessions before transitioning is a pretty sensible suggestion. It could help with any fears someone might have before the operation or find out something else that's affecting their life to make them think they need to do this.
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,591
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 4, 2022 14:23:03 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? If God had meant man to fly he would have given him wings! God DID apparently invent the Clownfish so I think the verdict is still out on this one.
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Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,591
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Post by Sneelock on Aug 4, 2022 14:25:46 GMT
"political pressure groups" is how people keep from being treated as subhuman. it seems to me that the people who have the most problem with them are the people who reserve the right to do this.
I'd like to suggest that this thread is so good it needs it's own theme song. Please sing to the tune of the Kinks "Victoria"
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Post by davey on Aug 4, 2022 15:13:01 GMT
OK, but doesn't that have something to do with the fact that it's easier nowadays to talk about these things? People's awareness has increased, you're more likely to get a sensitive, understanding response to your feelings? That might account for some of the increase in numbers. I'm sure that's true, and I think Toby acknowledges that in noting that it happened in a city that's far more socially progressive than most British cities. Still, it's an abnormally high number and so can be seen as a valid example of a social contagion. The question is, as Hatz mentions in his opening post, is whether it's just a trend, like flirting with bisexuality was in the early 80s. Is there a proper number of trans people that we need to keep under?
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Post by davey on Aug 4, 2022 15:20:28 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? A man can have some of the outward physical characteristics of a woman after hormone therapy and significant surgery, but has xy chromosomes because they were born a man and vice versa. Often with discussions of this nature, acknowledging this basic fact of science seems to be ignored. This is an extremely reductive way to frame the issue. What is being changed, is the person’s identity… their experience of walking through the world.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 15:21:36 GMT
I think recommending someone to have a few therapy sessions before transitioning is a pretty sensible suggestion. What makes you think that isn't standard practice already when it obviously is.
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Post by Markus on Aug 4, 2022 15:23:02 GMT
I think recommending someone to have a few therapy sessions before transitioning is a pretty sensible suggestion. What makes you think that isn't standard practice already when it obviously is. Where?
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