Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,591
|
Post by Sneelock on Aug 5, 2022 16:40:15 GMT
... tasteless joke removed. film at 11
|
|
|
Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 16:59:24 GMT
If sport really isn’t that critical, then I doubt that the majority of people would not be too worried if trans athletes politely excused themselves from competitive sports, rather than the onus being on non-trans athletes to accommodate them If we’re seeking the dumb solution… sure. But you aren’t going to convince a group of people looking for full societal acceptance to accept those terms. So that’s kind of a non-starter. Sports will adapt. Separating out into gender-based leagues has always been awkward (and come with its own set of inequities) - so it isn’t exactly a great system worthy of too much protection.
|
|
Sneelock
god
Better than Washington...
Posts: 8,591
|
Post by Sneelock on Aug 5, 2022 17:10:12 GMT
I think focusing on the sports issue is like focusing on public restrooms when there was pending anti-trans legislation.
IMO it's a bigger rhetorical problem than an actual problem that very many people have in their lives.
sure, there are issues of fairness but they can be sorted if fairness is really the goal.
|
|
|
Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 17:33:16 GMT
From time to time, we still see books making arguments about the physiological and/or genetic differences between black people and other races. The debates that follow always ask if it is verboten to acknowledge differences. This shit is nothing new. There were people who thought that it was unfair to break the color barrier in sports because Black men supposedly had different musculature.
The world is changing. They don’t make the music or movies I like anymore. Our politics are unrecognizable from anything I learned about in school. The climate is warming. Sports will change too. Brave new world.
|
|
|
Post by fonz on Aug 5, 2022 17:49:38 GMT
I don’t think the majority of people are that bothered… but for the participants in women’s sports, it’s obviously a big deal, and when the subject does come up in general conversation in my social groups, which it has done many times, literally every person of either sex that has expressed an opinion on the subject has said that it is not fair for ‘biological’ males to expect to compete in the same competitions as females. ‘Live and let live, sure, but don’t take the piss’ is a fair summary of opinion.
|
|
|
Post by tory on Aug 5, 2022 17:56:38 GMT
There is a big jump in someone assuming through self ID the ability to enter spaces, that by common consenus have emerged over time, generally considered to be forbidden to them.
I don't know whether this is a good thing. For every 10 women who say 'I've got no issue with it' there are maybe 1 or 2 who say 'I'm not comfortable with this situation'. And in the current climate no-one wants to be labelled transphobic, because once you're labelled something its very difficult to get rid of it.
The staff toilets at my school are being renovated and, as we have a couple of gay teachers who are quite active in promoting LGBT issues, there was a survey on whether staff wanted gender neutral toilets or a more trad set up. Of 105 staff 2 voted for gender neutral ones. In some cases as Chesterton said, when you find a wall across a road, you might have to ask why the wall is there rather than trying to knock it down.
|
|
|
Post by Markus on Aug 5, 2022 18:10:55 GMT
It's funny you don't ever hear about the women who transition to male, entering male sports. Does it not happen? It does and there's no fuss?
|
|
~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
|
Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 5, 2022 18:23:07 GMT
It's funny you don't ever hear about the women who transition to male, entering male sports. Does it not happen? It does and there's no fuss? It does and sometimes they are precluded from participating, provided their own changing space, must compete with/against women, etc., Men to women seem be more numerous or noticeable medically and possibly surgically, but we don't know who amongst women to men may already be passing and don't seek medical or surgical change.
|
|
|
Post by Markus on Aug 5, 2022 18:27:14 GMT
I'm not saying you're wrong, you'd just think you would hear more. Maybe statistically there's a lot more men transitioning than women.
|
|
~ / % ? *
god
disambiguating goat herder
Posts: 5,532
|
Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 5, 2022 18:35:24 GMT
For US college sports the NCAA presently requires 12 months of hormone therapy with a demonstrated testosterone level below 10 nanomoles per liter to become eligible for competition in the women's category, however in January it said it would allow the governing bodies of each specific sport to determine eligibility. Or they could use the prior NCAA regulations as a default as they have been in place now over ten years.(ESPN)
|
|
|
Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 18:38:52 GMT
There is a big jump in someone assuming through self ID the ability to enter spaces, that by common consenus have emerged over time, generally considered to be forbidden to them. I don't know whether this is a good thing. For every 10 women who say 'I've got no issue with it' there are maybe 1 or 2 who say 'I'm not comfortable with this situation'. And in the current climate no-one wants to be labelled transphobic, because once you're labelled something its very difficult to get rid of it. The staff toilets at my school are being renovated and, as we have a couple of gay teachers who are quite active in promoting LGBT issues, there was a survey on whether staff wanted gender neutral toilets or a more trad set up. Of 105 staff 2 voted for gender neutral ones. In some cases as Chesterton said, when you find a wall across a road, you might have to ask why the wall is there rather than trying to knock it down. This just sounds like a tarted-up way of saying that minority communities should just stfu.
|
|
|
Post by Markus on Aug 5, 2022 18:39:59 GMT
I think that's the only way to "balance the scales" but it's not 100%. I said earlier testosterone is one of the big factors outside of obvious physical differences.
|
|
toomanyhatz
god
I've met him/her. He/she's great!!
Posts: 3,243
|
Post by toomanyhatz on Aug 5, 2022 19:17:48 GMT
I would like to ask everyone posting here, hopefully without rancor or bias, who would have an easier time of it (whether physically or socially): a male transitioning to female competing in women's sports, or a female transitioning to male competing in men's sports? And why.
|
|
|
Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 19:23:23 GMT
I would like to ask everyone posting here, hopefully without rancor or bias, who would have an easier time of it (whether physically or socially): a male transitioning to female competing in women's sports, or a female transitioning to male competing in men's sports? And why. How would any of us know? Maybe sloop has a story 😏… but the rest of us?
|
|
|
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Aug 5, 2022 19:55:24 GMT
I’m on vacation and don’t like to type out long posts on my phone, so I’ll come back to this in a few days, but for now I’ll just say that there’s a trans man on my hockey team who transitioned after joining the team (I know they’ve had top surgery but not if they’ve had any other work done down at the shop), and they’re a better player than many of the genetic males on the team. This is just beer league hockey so doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things but everyone on the team has been completely supportive of them.
|
|