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Post by davey on Aug 4, 2022 17:51:27 GMT
you learn as you go along. That's my key takeaway on the whole subject. Society has coped with the idea for a VERY long time now. Sure - not to this degree, and not in these numbers. But reckoning with it is always going to be healthier than not reckoning with it. The real issue is WHO should determine how we reckon with it. Sensible people believe that the medical community and the people they are serving ought to lead the charge. Ironically, folks who claim to be conservatives keep insisting that this is a political issue that can somehow be made better by the intrusion of government. You can’t write this shit.
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Post by osgood on Aug 4, 2022 18:28:28 GMT
The problem with the intervention of medical doctors is that sometimes the experience can be humiliating. Being a doctor does not always imply being a reasonable human being.
And this has led to a discussion here in Spain about whether just the individual declaration is enough to assign sex, and apparently a new law is going in that direction. I have mixed feelings about that.
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toomanyhatz
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Post by toomanyhatz on Aug 4, 2022 18:44:49 GMT
The important question is, how whimsical are those individual declarations?
Age changes the equation, of course, but I'm betting on not whimsical at all in most cases.
Ultimately you want to land on what benefits the most people. But like Davey says, who determines that?
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Post by davey on Aug 4, 2022 18:47:43 GMT
The problem with the intervention of medical doctors is that sometimes the experience can be humiliating. Being a doctor does not always imply being a reasonable human being. What does “the intervention of doctors” mean? Doctors don’t intervene. Patients seek them out. When we talk about the medical community helping to lead the charge on where all this goes, that doesn’t just mean doctors. It means medical ethicists, scientists, psychiatrists, researchers, etc. And this has led to a discussion here in Spain about whether just the individual declaration is enough to assign sex, and apparently a new law is going in that direction. I have mixed feelings about that. Can you elaborate on the pros and cons as you see them? Promise not to attack or belittle your concerns. I’m genuinely interested.
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Post by Markus on Aug 4, 2022 18:48:40 GMT
Dave Chappelle just announced a gig in dublin for sept. Should be fun.
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Post by osgood on Aug 4, 2022 18:50:58 GMT
The problem with the intervention of medical doctors is that sometimes the experience can be humiliating. Being a doctor does not always imply being a reasonable human being. What does “the intervention of doctors” mean? Doctors don’t intervene. Patients seek them out. When we talk about the medical community helping to lead the charge on where all this goes, that doesn’t just mean doctors. It means medical ethicists, scientists, psychiatrists, researchers, etc. And this has led to a discussion here in Spain about whether just the individual declaration is enough to assign sex, and apparently a new law is going in that direction. I have mixed feelings about that. Can you elaborate on the pros and cons as you see them? Promise not to attack or belittle your concerns. I’m genuinely interested. I was meaning if intervention of doctors should be required for their advice before legal sex assignment. Don't have much time now, I'll elaborate tomorrow.
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~ / % ? *
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Aug 4, 2022 21:24:57 GMT
ugh, quagmire...
Women's sports and gender equity is ground zero, it is the glitch, where the cleave is for fairness and validation. Because scholarships are involved it becomes very loaded/delicate, current Gen Z and Alpha are very open and supportive of their trans peers as a group. But it can become very fraught when scholarships are on the line, no one wants to lose, and become not considered. Who did they lose to? Was/Is that fair? Should there be a trans category, particularly for individual sports? I listen to my daughters and their friends (some of whom are trans even). It gets very delicate. Everyone wants possibilities and a good future. Some schools/colleges present as open, but they are not, some schools are open, and some are not, one learns who are which, and plans/plays accordingly.
Less than 1% in the US claim trans status, of that roughly 40-60% may have medically transitioned (Hormone therapy, hormone blockers), of that possibly 10%-25% may have surgically transitioned, of these 5-10% may seek to transition back.
Different US states have different laws and procedures as to what and how, prior to and after age of majority, most require psychological support and living as intended pre-op for a year or more. In between are the levels of being: androgyny, physically passing, medically subverting/redirecting/rebuilding, and surgical. What is unspoken here is the fluidity of identity and where along the continuum one may be or stay, and for how long one may stay at a particular stage, and that possibly the majority never fully transition but seek and use the fluidity.
One of the important parts psychological support plays is the "why", which can help clarify intention. Has there been trauma, abuse, gender favoritism, etc., in the client's life? Is that influencing the decision, the intention, etc.,? Surprisingly, Jungian psychoanalysis has been on the cutting edge of trans care and insight, as looks at, works on the larger rhythms, patterns of one's life rather than parental/gender influences of other approaches (UK's Anna Freud's Object relations).
I get that this can be overwhelming and seem threatening to existing tropes, but I don't see being open and being kind as something that can not be done by individuals when we come from behind our fears, preconceptions and information/empathy fatigue. This is a very fluid situation with many many layers and nuances that get served a disservice when turned into a culture war fireball. When in doubt or fear, just be kind, it'll work out.
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Post by osgood on Aug 5, 2022 7:22:13 GMT
What does “the intervention of doctors” mean? Doctors don’t intervene. Patients seek them out. When we talk about the medical community helping to lead the charge on where all this goes, that doesn’t just mean doctors. It means medical ethicists, scientists, psychiatrists, researchers, etc. Can you elaborate on the pros and cons as you see them? Promise not to attack or belittle your concerns. I’m genuinely interested. I was meaning if intervention of doctors should be required for their advice before legal sex assignment. Don't have much time now, I'll elaborate tomorrow. Here I am, but anyway I don't think I'm going to say anything new. Thing is that they are preparing a law in Spain where people can register with the sex of their choice simply at will, with immediate effect. Pros: process is quick, painless and avoids potentially humilliating medical/psychological procedures Cons: Ease might lead to ill-considered decisions, and of course, the much-discussed potential impact on things like access to women's sports or women's safe spaces. Not to mention the controversial ROGD, whether it exists or not. I have no idea about the real statistical importance of all these subjects, both pro and con, but I do agree that the most important contribution of all of us external actors should be to sympathise with the people who are going through this.
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Post by fonz on Aug 5, 2022 7:37:19 GMT
Can we acknowledge that it is not possible for someone to fundamentally change sex? A man can have some of the outward physical characteristics of a woman after hormone therapy and significant surgery, but has xy chromosomes because they were born a man and vice versa. Often with discussions of this nature, acknowledging this basic fact of science seems to be ignored. This is an extremely reductive way to frame the issue. What is being changed, is the person’s identity… their experience of walking through the world. It’s only ‘reducing ‘ one aspect of the situation- the fundamental biology of how the individuals’ bodies work. But that is important, crucial in fact, if you are putting people into a competitive physical arena. Something that never seems to get raised is that, even among biological/genetic males’ there is a massive range of testosterone levels, that will put males on the upper centiles at a massive advantage over those at the lower end of the scale. People will never be able to compete on a level playing field.
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Post by fonz on Aug 5, 2022 7:44:50 GMT
And while this only ‘seems’ to be important wrt sports, sport is hugely important one way or another in all children’s lives-either as an active and willing participant, or, for the rest of us, a miserable time, mainly because for one reason or another we simply weren’t very good. The impact of ‘games’ at school went far beyond the ‘arena’
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Post by Markus on Aug 5, 2022 8:20:21 GMT
Testosterone is important in the sports debate. From the physical to the aggression difference between males and females. You can manipulate it to a certain degree but enough to level the playing field, if ever? I don't think so at the minute anyway.
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Post by rayge on Aug 5, 2022 15:01:25 GMT
I have no idea about the real statistical importance of all these subjects, both pro and con, but I do agree that the most important contribution of all of us external actors should be to sympathise with the people who are going through this. Precisely.
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Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 15:27:08 GMT
I have no idea about the real statistical importance of all these subjects, both pro and con, but I do agree that the most important contribution of all of us external actors should be to sympathise with the people who are going through this. Precisely. Even acknowledging that we ARE external actors is helpful. I’m always a little bit wary of conversation where I’m asked to participate in debating someone else’s rights and/or humanity.
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Post by davey on Aug 5, 2022 16:06:40 GMT
This is an extremely reductive way to frame the issue. What is being changed, is the person’s identity… their experience of walking through the world. It’s only ‘reducing ‘ one aspect of the situation- the fundamental biology of how the individuals’ bodies work. But that is important, crucial in fact, if you are putting people into a competitive physical arena. Something that never seems to get raised is that, even among biological/genetic males’ there is a massive range of testosterone levels, that will put males on the upper centiles at a massive advantage over those at the lower end of the scale. People will never be able to compete on a level playing field. Look - I absolutely get the cultural importance of competitive sports. But that just cannot be the central issue here. You simply cannot make a convincing case that a class of people should be forced to live their entire lives with depression and deep feelings of dysphoria because a small portion might participate in sports. Is protecting the integrity of athletic competitions ou primary concern here?. Sports will adapt. People will adapt.
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Post by fonz on Aug 5, 2022 16:34:36 GMT
If sport really isn’t that critical, then I doubt that the majority of people would not be too worried if trans athletes politely excused themselves from competitive sports, rather than the onus being on non-trans athletes to accommodate them
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