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Nov 22, 2020 17:42:21 GMT
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Post by tory on Nov 22, 2020 17:42:21 GMT
The trans discussion is incredibly complex and not helped by the fact that any deviation from giving trans people anything less than full support or saying "hang on a minute" in any argument essentially makes you a "transphobe".
Rowling isn't "mean" FFS. The issue is that trans issues are often walking or trampling over women's issues.
See all the talk around 'people who menstruate" or "womb-havers". When you see the sort of outright filth that Rowling was being subjected to, you just have to wonder. Rowling is a social democrat with working class background - she's not exactly your classic reactionary tory.
Trans people often have huge issues. I follow Jay Hulme, a young lad who articulates the issues and problems they encounter. But the virulent nature of some sections of the trans community online does it absolutely no favours.
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Post by Mr. FOLLARD on Nov 22, 2020 17:48:04 GMT
Yeah, I often notice that the language used by the trans community in response to often carefully-worded (but sometimes naive) questions that indicate confusion over the state of things is pretty vicious.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Nov 22, 2020 17:48:30 GMT
Kevin Hart and Dave Chappelle have gotten in hot water with gay and transgender jokes too. Hart had to back out of the Oscars because of it, if you remember. But there is some difference between Rowling/Cleese and Hart/Chappelle. Rowling and Cleese just seem ignorant, mean and unwilling while Hart and Chappelle are lazy and tone deaf. But maybe that's my misperception too based on the method and forum they use. I don't get that from Cleese, I have to say, but I'm biased because I like him. I've seen him attacked for all kinds of tossed-off statements but his views really aren't particularly shocking. He's still a sharp cookie, just a little old-fashioned. That's why I ended my post like I did - I excuse Hart and Chappelle because I enjoy their humor despite their views so cut them slack.
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Post by sloopjohnc on Nov 22, 2020 17:49:31 GMT
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Post by sloopjohnc on Nov 22, 2020 17:51:21 GMT
The trans discussion is incredibly complex and not helped by the fact that any deviation from giving trans people anything less than full support or saying "hang on a minute" in any argument essentially makes you a "transphobe". Rowling isn't "mean" FFS. The issue is that trans issues are often walking or trampling over women's issues. See all the talk around 'people who menstruate" or "womb-havers". When you see the sort of outright filth that Rowling was being subjected to, you just have to wonder. Rowling is a social democrat with working class background - she's not exactly your classic reactionary tory. Trans people often have huge issues. I follow Jay Hulme, a young lad who articulates the issues and problems they encounter. But the virulent nature of some sections of the trans community online does it absolutely no favours. I saw something on news yesterday or day before that trans homicides are signficantly up in the US this past year, and African American trans' deaths even more so. I think everyone's trying to figure out the terminology and definitions.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:03:15 GMT
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Post by tory on Nov 22, 2020 18:03:15 GMT
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Nov 22, 2020 18:10:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 18:10:23 GMT
Tory's right it's a complex topic, but to talk about it is hard work if can't be open and logical.
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rayge
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Post by rayge on Nov 22, 2020 19:29:23 GMT
Betty denim wasn't too keen on the transgender issue either wasn't she? No idea why she popped in my head. Just remember being a bit surprised because she seemed pretty liberal. I think she objected to the way that men who identified as women would have free access to female toilets - the dangers that could result from that are pretty obvious, I think. That was one main point, at least. It's a fuck of a good point, too. It's why so many feminists are wary of 'trans rights' - not because they hate trans people but because they think - hell, know – that some men, and maybe more than are genuinely transitioning, will abuse them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 19:36:57 GMT
But it's the same argument that people used to make for why gay men shouldn't use male toilets or changing rooms.
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Post by rayge on Nov 22, 2020 19:50:22 GMT
But it's the same argument that people used to make for why gay men shouldn't use male toilets or changing rooms. I've genuinely never heard that argument, but wouldn't attempt to negate your experience. I would think that anyone saying that believes that some or all gay men are predators.
No-one - or at least very few people - suggests that people transitioning from male to female are a problem, so much as the idea that cis-gendered males with predatory or prurient instincts can gain access to women-only safe places - not just toilets or changing rooms, but refuges, simply by declaring themselves trans and indulging in a little transvestitism.
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Post by tory on Nov 22, 2020 19:53:52 GMT
There is evidence that men identifying as women have entered women-only refuges and then raped other women. This is a dreadful by-product of the sort of legislation that allows people to self-identify.
No-one doubts that trans people are probably subject to more abuse and violence than any other group in the West. But just because they are subject to this abuse does not mean that we should rush through legislation and the like that can often have disastrous consequences.
Objecting to this sort of thing does not make people transphobic - it's looking to understand the ramifications of a revolutionary philosophical process that overturns our perceptions of what women and men are. Sure, there are some people who think "well, we should just let people be who they want to be" but it is this woolly liberal thinking that produces messes like the above, as well all the horrendous stories that are coming out about young adults who transitioned "too early".
The Drag Queen thing is another complex subject.
The first part of this video - if I was at a kid's party and I saw this happening, I would feel extremely uncomfortable, just as I would find any kind of sexualised dancing in front of kids. We have enough of that as it is. Do it elsewhere - just not in front of kids.
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Post by ~ / % ? * on Nov 22, 2020 20:10:07 GMT
There is evidence that men identifying as women have entered women-only refuges and then raped other women. This is a dreadful by-product of the sort of legislation that allows people to self-identify. Where? When?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 21:17:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 21:25:04 GMT
There is evidence that men identifying as women have entered women-only refuges and then raped other women. This is a dreadful by-product of the sort of legislation that allows people to self-identify. Where? When? Wow. Publish your facts.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:39:32 GMT
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Post by tory on Nov 22, 2020 21:39:32 GMT
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