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racism
Sept 27, 2020 14:51:18 GMT
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Post by oh oooh on Sept 27, 2020 14:51:18 GMT
Same with children from most Asian countries (in the UK)
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racism
Sept 27, 2020 16:04:23 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 27, 2020 16:04:23 GMT
I’ll take you at your word about your own thinking process. But what country do you live in? Are people of color over represented in its prisons? Are they noticeably unequal in terms of generational wealth? Do they lag in educational attainment or employment? Are they scapegoated politically and/or the subject of police brutality? I ask all of this, because unless none of this is true or unless you have dedicated yourself to activism in order to end these things - you accept living in a society that is premised on the kind of hierarchy I caught myself believing in. So it really doesn’t matter if you have the bad thought. If you live with it all around you and allow yourself to see it as normal, you’ve internalized it. I think the main flaw in your thinking is to assume the rest of the western world is basically the same as the US. A big difference is obviously EU emigration is a product of various peoples wanting to move here. I struggle to think of any examples where part of our current European population of immigrants were brought here by force and under slavery. I don't think it exists. Successive waves of voluntary immigration assimilated, albeit usually only with the 2nd or 3rd generation and not without struggle of the first generations. I live in the Netherlands where 25% of the population has an immigration background. The city I was born in, Rotterdam, has an immigrant population of 51.5%. I demonstrated to you before (in this thread or another) that whatever institutional racism exists, it doesn't show up in Dutch statistics on education. ( the same as in US statistics) In Universities, 38% of the population has an immigration background. Clearly a higher portion that you would expect from the demographics of the overall Dutch population. Our jails are populated by 2/3 of people with immigrant backgrounds. What does it mean? It's tempting to think there is a higher power (institutional racism) that causes POC's to outnumber white Americans in jails. And as far as I am concerned this may very well be true. ( there are examples of that) But what do we say about the larger number of POC's in Universities then ? Are they getting a free pass OR are they simply there because they work harder and are more motivated? Why would the former be necessarily a product of the racist powers that be and the latter the product of individual choices? Actually I didn’t make that assumption. That’s why I asked what country you are from. A cursory look at the recent history of The Netherlands shows the rise of a populist anti-immigrant sentiment over the last 20 years. Enough to be characterized often as having become “official policy.” So clearly some kind of social hierarchy IS being internalized by folks in your country. I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole of recent Dutch politics with you - though it IS fascinating.
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racism
Sept 27, 2020 17:11:38 GMT
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Post by cousinlou on Sept 27, 2020 17:11:38 GMT
I think the main flaw in your thinking is to assume the rest of the western world is basically the same as the US. A big difference is obviously EU emigration is a product of various peoples wanting to move here. I struggle to think of any examples where part of our current European population of immigrants were brought here by force and under slavery. I don't think it exists. Successive waves of voluntary immigration assimilated, albeit usually only with the 2nd or 3rd generation and not without struggle of the first generations. I live in the Netherlands where 25% of the population has an immigration background. The city I was born in, Rotterdam, has an immigrant population of 51.5%. I demonstrated to you before (in this thread or another) that whatever institutional racism exists, it doesn't show up in Dutch statistics on education. ( the same as in US statistics) In Universities, 38% of the population has an immigration background. Clearly a higher portion that you would expect from the demographics of the overall Dutch population. Our jails are populated by 2/3 of people with immigrant backgrounds. What does it mean? It's tempting to think there is a higher power (institutional racism) that causes POC's to outnumber white Americans in jails. And as far as I am concerned this may very well be true. ( there are examples of that) But what do we say about the larger number of POC's in Universities then ? Are they getting a free pass OR are they simply there because they work harder and are more motivated? Why would the former be necessarily a product of the racist powers that be and the latter the product of individual choices? Actually I didn’t make that assumption. That’s why I asked what country you are from. A cursory look at the recent history of The Netherlands shows the rise of a populist anti-immigrant sentiment over the last 20 years. Enough to be characterized often as having become “official policy.” So clearly some kind of social hierarchy IS being internalized by folks in your country. I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole of recent Dutch politics with you - though it IS fascinating. Fascinating it may be but hardly surprising to anybody who follows international politics. All European countries see the same, a uprising of sorts of populist politics. Which, by the way is not strictly the same as racist. The overwhelming racist sentiment is closing the border gor more immigration. You are not a fan of rabbit holes. Well. The representation of what you call populist parties in parliament is less than 10%. To give you an idea about proportions, our republicans would be termed commies in the US. Likewise, our populist parties move quite a bit left from you reigning president. But, what is your point exactly?
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racism
Sept 27, 2020 18:56:46 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 27, 2020 18:56:46 GMT
I’m trying to suss out yours
I made a simple statement above about the way we internalize social hierarchy. You claimed to be exempt. But based on the last few exchanges and the recent history of your country - there definitely appears to be a hierarchy where you live that views the existence of immigrants as a problem to be reckoned with.
So maybe we just leave it at that.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 8:14:02 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Sept 28, 2020 8:14:02 GMT
I’m trying to suss out yours I made a simple statement above about the way we internalize social hierarchy. You claimed to be exempt. But based on the last few exchanges and the recent history of your country - there definitely appears to be a hierarchy where you live that views the existence of immigrants as a problem to be reckoned with. So maybe we just leave it at that. I didn't say anything about the existence of immigrants but rather it's high on the agenda of populist parties to limit the numbers that get access. Whatever their particular agenda is with that, most sociologists will agree with the general notion that any given population can only deal with so many new entrants. Whatever. You keep going on about internalizing the hierarchy. Is parliament a representation of that? What when elections have been and the representation changes, does our hierarchy change instantly with it? Unlike the US, we have a parliament where 16 different parties are represented. Rather than repeating your internalizing hierarchy issue, you may want to substantiate it and/or explain why you think it is noticeable that people of colour lag in educational attainment yet statistics show that that's not the case.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 9:07:25 GMT
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Post by daveythefatboy on Sept 28, 2020 9:07:25 GMT
I dunno Lou. It took 30 seconds of Googling to see that the perspectives of non-white folks in your country vary significantly from yours: www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-53261944I’m not arrogant enough to get into the business of telling you about a country that I’ve never even been to. I’ll just simply say that I don’t really trust it when a member of the dominant culture tells me that no social hierarchy exists in their culture.
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Post by tory on Sept 28, 2020 9:11:39 GMT
The fact is that cultures (if we can call them that) all have differing characteristics. That is plainly true. Why do Sikhs and Jews, the latter despite centuries of oppression, perform in general, economically in hugely superior terms even to the native populations of countries they emigrate to?
Asian cultures prize educational attainment as a way of getting ahead in the countries they emigrate to. This is also true of African cultures such as West Africans and those from Kenya.
Muslim cultures in the UK, despite being socially conservative in the extreme, tend to vote Labour. Hindus vote Conservative in the main.
It strikes me that the reasons behind this is the manifestation of strong family life, which despite oppression (for example, Chinese people are far more likely to be racially abused than black people in the UK) produces good results.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 9:30:34 GMT
Post by tory on Sept 28, 2020 9:30:34 GMT
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 11:21:32 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 11:21:32 GMT
African children here in the UK routinely perform very well in education and most go onto higher education. A higher percentage do than white working class children. Is it because of their cultural upbringing and manifestations (ie most traditional African societies are socially Conservative and push education) or some other factor?
Or is it because the working class culture in the UK was always to leave school at 16 and get into a trade, regardless of family politics, and the expectation that a working class kid could go to further or higher education is only a very new thing?
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 11:23:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 11:23:09 GMT
African children here in the UK routinely perform very well in education and most go onto higher education. A higher percentage do than white working class children. Is it because of their cultural upbringing and manifestations (ie most traditional African societies are socially Conservative and push education) or some other factor? Or is it because the working class culture in the UK was always to leave school at 16 and get into a trade, regardless of family politics, and the expectation that a working class kid could go to further or higher education is only a very new thing?
Do you think this is still the case now for UK working class folk? leave school at 16.........etc?
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 11:42:11 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 11:42:11 GMT
Schools try to push as many as they can into further education if only to boost their target scores, including many who aren't particularly suited to it. The parents or grandparents however often remember a world where apprenticeships and night schools were far more important and widespread as they are now, and "getting on" meant applying oneself to a profession early and setting yourself up for life. "Why bother with University" is still pretty common theme here from the older generation (often from a more social conservative sort). There can be a bit of a conflict.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 12:28:03 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 12:28:03 GMT
Universities and schools are a business now in a certain sense with scores etc. I thought you meant that young brits were being influenced to leave school even today which i found hard to believe. I remember watching a program that suggested the new working class is the likes of people working low level computer jobs, like call centres etc. These jobs don't really need a computer degree, maybe an 8 week computer course at the most. I think working class will be redefined in the next decade or so as automation comes more to the fore. In which case i do think working class will be very very different.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 12:35:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 12:35:24 GMT
Universities and schools are a business now in a certain sense with scores etc. I thought you meant that young brits were being influenced to leave school even today which i found hard to believe. I remember watching a program that suggested the new working class is the likes of people working low level computer jobs, like call centres etc. These jobs don't really need a computer degree, maybe an 8 week computer course at the most. I think working class will be redefined in the next decade or so as automation comes more to the fore. In which case i do think working class will be very very different. SEG classifications have already redefined them in the way you suggested, and have done for some time. I guess what hasn't changed is the cultural perception. There was a class identity to being a miner, but that's not true, for a load of reasons , for working in a call centre.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 12:49:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 12:49:54 GMT
SEG classifications have already redefined them in the way you suggested, and have done for some time. Aaah the SEG, keep forgetting about them folk.
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racism
Sept 28, 2020 13:25:44 GMT
Post by rayge on Sept 28, 2020 13:25:44 GMT
Or is it because the working class culture in the UK was always to leave school at 16 and get into a trade, regardless of family politics, and the expectation that a working class kid could go to further or higher education is only a very new thing?
In my lifetime, leaving age was 15, and both my parents left at 14. When I went up in 1966, it was still a big deal for someone from my class and background to get into university, rather than leaving at 16 to go to a polytechnic, secretarial college or other type of trade school
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