|
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Feb 3, 2021 20:22:07 GMT
In the short term, it seems like a lose/lose situation to me. Some will oppose a nationalistic outlook from Labour, while others will accuse them of cynical manipulation. It could take a long time for it to seem like a natural state for the party.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 20:22:50 GMT
Are all the candidates mentioned above wealthy? Like millionaire wealthy? What candidates?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 20:24:22 GMT
In the short term, it seems like a lose/lose situation to me. Some will oppose a nationalistic outlook from Labour, while others will accuse them of cynical manipulation. It could take a long time for it to seem like a natural state for the party. It needs to be done subtlely
|
|
|
Post by tory on Feb 3, 2021 20:33:13 GMT
I think we've all felt it over the years. I remember I used to cringe when I saw "Buy British" on food labels or bumper stickers. "How vulgar" I thought, because I'd grown up in a liberal world where it was better to celebrate the international, the sophisticated. I marvelled at Germany when I visited it for the first time.
But we have swapped a pride in our country for an attempt to be "European", and as I've said before on this, the "European identity" thing looks thin and weak. What it really attempts to cover is cheap city breaks, drinking & eating, Easyjet, a second home in Marbella, speaking English to people in Europe because we're so fucking awful at languages and really, little else. People who say that they love the EU for example have little to no idea how the European Commission works. Watch as Ursula von der Leyen blunders through another 3 years as head because there's no way of getting rid of her!
If you have a look at the 1966 World Cup final footage, there are virtually no "England" flags - it's the Union Jack. What happened? When people's identities, particularly one as visceral as where you come from, are attacked, in most cases they double down on it. So as the London set poo-poohed the flag, working class English people claimed the St George's Flag and pushed it more and more.
|
|
|
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Feb 3, 2021 20:33:39 GMT
In the short term, it seems like a lose/lose situation to me. Some will oppose a nationalistic outlook from Labour, while others will accuse them of cynical manipulation. It could take a long time for it to seem like a natural state for the party. It needs to be done subtlely A little bit of red here... a bit of blue over there...some tastefully placed triangles...
|
|
|
Post by Reactionary Rage on Feb 3, 2021 20:34:09 GMT
To con the plebs eh?
The modern left hates Britain, America and the West.
|
|
|
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Feb 3, 2021 20:35:19 GMT
...while others will accuse them of cynical manipulation.
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,792
|
Post by rayge on Feb 3, 2021 20:43:47 GMT
Continue to enjoy losing then. I 'lost' when the Tory cunt Blair and the filth mandelson did away with clause 4. I joined the party because I supported the renationalisation of the railways and I'm leaving it because I think the whole idea of nation states is a disgrace and I don't want to join.
But as an Autotheist, Vegetarian and Max-Stirner style individual anarchist, I can't really 'lose' politically, because I don't actually care about 'power' or 'borders'. None of those cunts in Westminster or anywhere else has any power over me, because I don't let them, and they also have little or no power over the economy or whatever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 20:54:43 GMT
To con the plebs eh? The modern left hates Britain, America and the West. That's way too strong and too much of a sweeping statement for me. I
|
|
|
Post by tory on Feb 3, 2021 21:08:52 GMT
Iraq has left a very difficult, existential issue at the heart of the party and movement. That's why I think there was such a swing towards the Palestinian issue for example over the last decade - a very large, if unplanned, over-correction to try and make amends for the disaster.
The party is ever more populated by young activists who have grown up within the EU. They equate everything good with the EU and everything shit with the Tories and Britain. When you look at the issues that young people face in general in this country, then I think it's not that hard to understand why they may think that.
But it is counter-productive when the party faces an unprecedented issue in that its traditional voter base is disintegrating before its eyes. Douglas Murray put it succinctly when, after the 70's and 80s, Marxists realised that they could no longer "trust" the working class. It hadn't delivered the revolution they wanted and frustratingly, they were more interested in things like law and order and prosperity rather than burgeoning class consciousness. Time to move onto new members.
|
|
|
Post by Reactionary Rage on Feb 3, 2021 22:09:31 GMT
Continue to enjoy losing then. I 'lost' when the Tory cunt Blair and the filth mandelson did away with clause 4. I joined the party because I supported the renationalisation of the railways and I'm leaving it because I think the whole idea of nation states is a disgrace and I don't want to join.
But as an Autotheist, Vegetarian and Max-Stirner style individual anarchist, I can't really 'lose' politically, because I don't actually care about 'power' or 'borders'. None of those cunts in Westminster or anywhere else has any power over me, because I don't let them, and they also have little or no power over the economy or whatever.
Politics is about compromise. Trade offs. Nobody wins unless you are a dictator but unless you are in power you have no direct influence. It's not a purity test. It's real life and when the electorate thinks quite differently to you then you compromise and shape things around them. That's the trade off.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 22:10:38 GMT
Douglas Murray put it succinctly when, after the 70's and 80s, Marxists realised that they could no longer "trust" the working class. Is Murray not familiar with the lumpenproletariat then?
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,792
|
Post by rayge on Feb 3, 2021 22:36:22 GMT
I 'lost' when the Tory cunt Blair and the filth mandelson did away with clause 4. I joined the party because I supported the renationalisation of the railways and I'm leaving it because I think the whole idea of nation states is a disgrace and I don't want to join.
But as an Autotheist, Vegetarian and Max-Stirner style individual anarchist, I can't really 'lose' politically, because I don't actually care about 'power' or 'borders'. None of those cunts in Westminster or anywhere else has any power over me, because I don't let them, and they also have little or no power over the economy or whatever.
Politics is about compromise. Trade offs. Nobody wins unless you are a dictator but unless you are in power you have no direct influence. It's not a purity test. It's real life and when the electorate thinks quite differently to you then you compromise and shape things around them. That's the trade off. OK. I get what you are saying, and I'm sure that's how politics 'works', but what I'm saying is I'm not bothered about political change and consensus and winning votes, because I happen to think everyone has a direct influence in shaping the world they live in. The trick is to realize – or kid yourself, it amounts to exactly the same thing - that your perceptions of the world are yours to change, and that the limits to your freedom are in your – or one's, this isn't me having a go at you, Dougie – own mind.
Change your mind, change the world. It works for me.
|
|
|
Post by Reactionary Rage on Feb 4, 2021 11:40:51 GMT
Politics is about compromise. Trade offs. Nobody wins unless you are a dictator but unless you are in power you have no direct influence. It's not a purity test. It's real life and when the electorate thinks quite differently to you then you compromise and shape things around them. That's the trade off. OK. I get what you are saying, and I'm sure that's how politics 'works', but what I'm saying is I'm not bothered about political change and consensus and winning votes, because I happen to think everyone has a direct influence in shaping the world they live in. The trick is to realize – or kid yourself, it amounts to exactly the same thing - that your perceptions of the world are yours to change, and that the limits to your freedom are in your – or one's, this isn't me having a go at you, Dougie – own mind.
Change your mind, change the world. It works for me.
I didn't take it as you having a go. I hear what you are saying. I have been trying to rewire my brain for the last few years after I realised certain things. This is partly what my political obsessions are about...me trying to move towards some kind of greater truth/understanding of people and the world...reality. Maybe the difference is that you believe in shaping your own reality whereas I am more about understanding it. I dunno.
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,792
|
Post by rayge on Feb 4, 2021 11:50:05 GMT
OK. I get what you are saying, and I'm sure that's how politics 'works', but what I'm saying is I'm not bothered about political change and consensus and winning votes, because I happen to think everyone has a direct influence in shaping the world they live in. The trick is to realize – or kid yourself, it amounts to exactly the same thing - that your perceptions of the world are yours to change, and that the limits to your freedom are in your – or one's, this isn't me having a go at you, Dougie – own mind.
Change your mind, change the world. It works for me.
I didn't take it as you having a go. I hear what you are saying. I have been trying to rewire my brain for the last few years after I realised certain things. This is partly what my political obsessions are about...me trying to move towards some kind of greater truth/understanding of people and the world...reality. Maybe the difference is that you believe in shaping your own reality whereas I am more about understanding it. I dunno. I honestly believe that 'shaping your own reality' and 'understanding it' are more or less the same thing seem from different perspectives.
Good luck with it, genuinely.
|
|