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Post by cousinlou on Feb 4, 2021 11:58:53 GMT
Iraq has left a very difficult, existential issue at the heart of the party and movement. That's why I think there was such a swing towards the Palestinian issue for example over the last decade - a very large, if unplanned, over-correction to try and make amends for the disaster. The party is ever more populated by young activists who have grown up within the EU. They equate everything good with the EU and everything shit with the Tories and Britain. When you look at the issues that young people face in general in this country, then I think it's not that hard to understand why they may think that. But it is counter-productive when the party faces an unprecedented issue in that its traditional voter base is disintegrating before its eyes. Douglas Murray put it succinctly when, after the 70's and 80s, Marxists realised that they could no longer "trust" the working class. It hadn't delivered the revolution they wanted and frustratingly, they were more interested in things like law and order and prosperity rather than burgeoning class consciousness. Time to move onto new members. Maybe it haven't been the Marxists but the working class got all the 'revolution' they wanted: Emancipation, Better salaries, Holidays in Spain, Pizza delivery on Fridays, a Car and a House!! What the hardcore Marxists have always misinterpreted is why they got votes anyway. Where commie party leaders were very much into was the theoretical aspects of Marx's bible where the voters just wanted a 'better' life. Once that was achieved to some extent, it was over for the commies.
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Post by tory on Feb 4, 2021 12:03:46 GMT
Well exactly. Marxists were always about achieving "consciousness" which is as daft as it gets for any millenarian cult, never mind communism. We see it again with ', it's exactly the same thing. "Being aware"...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 12:13:44 GMT
Well exactly. Marxists were always about achieving "consciousness" which is as daft as it gets for any millenarian cult, never mind communism. We see it again with ', it's exactly the same thing. "Being aware"... I don't know to what degree you've studied Marx -and by this I mean reading him, rather than simply reading his detractors. But this is a rather superficial and misleading summary. Marx described the "consciousness" as developing out of a historical process, not simply being an act of individual 'wokeness'. This aspect of Marxism was always, in my view, a bit of a pseudo-science, but nevertheless there's rather more to it than you suggest.
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Post by tory on Mar 7, 2021 16:51:55 GMT
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Mar 8, 2021 9:46:20 GMT
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 8:48:06 GMT
Big day for Sir Keir. For all the talk of them looking like they'll get thrashed in Hartlepool (only the 2nd time since 1982 that a Govt might win a by-election) they have consolidated gains in London and have turned it into a bastion. This below explains a lot though
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 6, 2021 8:57:08 GMT
I wonder where Masked Man sits on that
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 9:10:45 GMT
Poor old TMM. Desperately wants to be in Trondheim, not Peterborough.
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Post by DarknessFish on May 6, 2021 9:19:07 GMT
Looks like desperate times for Labour. The right of the party wanted someone electable, and so did everything they could to get rid of Corbyn, and replaced him with a sandwich toaster. The left of the party are all enjoying the impending disaster in the polls, saying well, you lot celebrated Corbyn's defeat. There just isn't an agreed purpose between the membership, the left want to fix things, the right want to be in power.
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Post by oh oooh on May 6, 2021 9:29:13 GMT
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 9:42:28 GMT
The problem Starmer has, to me at least, is that he has to gauge the mood of the country whilst at the same time trying to be combative towards the Government.
Is this actually possible? The country has faced 5 or so years of tumultuous politics topped off with a year long Pandemic.
I think most people would agree that the sentiment of the public is that they have been gracious towards the Government with its vaccine rollout (Helped enormously by the efficacy of the NHS) and long periods of furlough, but that this has made up for some serious problems at the start. No-one is going to forget 100K+ deaths or long periods of virtual house arrest.
Where does Labour fit in with this? It has to attack the Government and hold it accountable, but the general mood is that this looks like "point-scoring" more than anything else. If anything, a Labour Government under Starmer would have done the same thing as the Tory Government.
The Tory Government have thrown the form book out of the window and spent in a manner over the last year that even Jeremy Corbyn would have agreed with. So there, straight away, the Labour party find that their opponent has suckered them.
I have sympathy with Starmer because he has inherited a party with a lot of issues and has not really had any real "normal" time to get to grips with the Government. And I think that once things return to "normality" to a certain extent, the very loose nature of Johnson's style of Government will produce opportunities for him at the dispatch box to hold them to account.
Whether this turns into election possibilities is a whole different ball game though. That, I feel, rides on the state of the economy, which could very well be a boom time for many in the next couple of years. If it is, then I feel Johnson will probably do enough to win another election, as I suspect he'll call one in late 2022 or early 2023. That means 2028. Starmer should do enough to be around still if Labour manages to erode the majority by then.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 6, 2021 9:51:38 GMT
Corbynism has fucked 'em. That's the simple truth. The far left have screwed the party but these people are incapable of admitting they are wrong and realising they are the problem because A. they are lunatics and B. it is all about them. In their bizarro world the solution is a return to Corbynism without Corbyn and they will see the failure of Starmer as "proof" that they are right. That's how their brains work.
The membership is seriously disconnected from the British public and it's hard to see how the party can reconcile those two groups and put together a cohesive vision. At this point they are far too in thrall to middle class city dwelling do gooders, activist twats and nonsense like BLM. They are no longer a serious party I'm afraid.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 10:01:52 GMT
The problem Starmer has, to me at least, is that he has to gauge the mood of the country whilst at the same time trying to be combative towards the Government. Is this actually possible? The country has faced 5 or so years of tumultuous politics topped off with a year long Pandemic. I think most people would agree that the sentiment of the public is that they have been gracious towards the Government with its vaccine rollout (Helped enormously by the efficacy of the NHS) and long periods of furlough, but that this has made up for some serious problems at the start. No-one is going to forget 100K+ deaths or long periods of virtual house arrest. Where does Labour fit in with this? It has to attack the Government and hold it accountable, but the general mood is that this looks like "point-scoring" more than anything else. If anything, a Labour Government under Starmer would have done the same thing as the Tory Government. The Tory Government have thrown the form book out of the window and spent in a manner over the last year that even Jeremy Corbyn would have agreed with. So there, straight away, the Labour party find that their opponent has suckered them. I have sympathy with Starmer because he has inherited a party with a lot of issues and has not really had any real "normal" time to get to grips with the Government. And I think that once things return to "normality" to a certain extent, the very loose nature of Johnson's style of Government will produce opportunities for him at the dispatch box to hold them to account. Whether this turns into election possibilities is a whole different ball game though. That, I feel, rides on the state of the economy, which could very well be a boom time for many in the next couple of years. If it is, then I feel Johnson will probably do enough to win another election, as I suspect he'll call one in late 2022 or early 2023. That means 2028. Starmer should do enough to be around still if Labour manages to erode the majority by then. If the country is happy to have an incompetent lying corrupt set of self serving buffoons who openly carry on with zero shame then honestly pointing it out isn't point scoring, it is more a relief to know that some of us see that the emperor really is buck fucking naked. The truth is no one cares about anybody or anything anymore. They love the NHS but sue the shit out of them for any chance of cash and moan that their operations are cancelled. This is done on a personal level of course. The fact that lack of funding and figure fuckers and plain lies about building hospitals are the norm those same people are banging their pots the loudest. Thank god Corbyn didn't get in we would all be dead, free internet , what a cunt and where is he going to find the money for all this? What a mindset the UK public have. Serious life changing policies and there effects no longer require serious debate or scrutiny because asking why you are shooting yourself in the foot means you are a snowflake. In the land of people with no toes them that want to walk are the enemy.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 10:10:37 GMT
Big day for Sir Keir. For all the talk of them looking like they'll get thrashed in Hartlepool (only the 2nd time since 1982 that a Govt might win a by-election) they have consolidated gains in London and have turned it into a bastion. This below explains a lot though Toby, the only thing that this explains is that land of hope and glory means something to people sinking into a fucking big hole and they are listening to the band while the cold waters engulf them. If you love your country then look after its people. Why is this kind of shit so important to you? I don't know what happened to my generation. I don't understand how tolerance and unity the true signs of a great nation changed into nimbyism and intolerance.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 6, 2021 10:14:22 GMT
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