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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 10:25:08 GMT
To be clear I am not advocating voting labour as such. I want people to be more aware (if that's the right term) of what politicians and politics can do. All the parties need to clean up their act. How we treat our people is important . I don't like the racist/ leftie gender politics either.
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 10:26:52 GMT
Toby, the only thing that this explains is that land of hope and glory means something to people sinking into a fucking big hole and they are listening to the band while the cold waters engulf them. If you love your country then look after its people. Why is this kind of shit so important to you? I don't know what happened to my generation. I don't understand how tolerance and unity the true signs of a great nation Deep down I guess outside of the "internationalist" mind set most people want to feel pride in where they come from. If they don't feel much pride in much else, such as their life etc, then that is something to cling to. I don't think it's much of a step to say that the Labour party and the Left in general has jettisoned patriotism. We've talked before about what Patriotism or a pride in one's country is, and it is not automatically a sense of superiority of others, a petty "jingoism" etc. It doesn't mean intolerance etc. Just as Brexit doesn't mean that one hates Europe either. Just because some talented language cunt in a wig observed something in the 18th century doesn't mean that it is necessarily true now. The "English" identity has been attacked over the years (Little Englander!), topped off by the infamous Thornberry tweet, and yes, like all identities it is in no way perfect, but deep down it has caused reverberations that could destroy the Labour party. A country that loathes its past and what it is or was is not a happy place. True, there are many things that ALL countries have struggled with and should recognise, but that is part and parcel of the evolution of the nation-state and the way of the world.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 10:34:59 GMT
Toby , where does pride in where you came from stop, what does it make you , how does it define you , what do you become? Flags , dirt and mythology. When all is failing remember St Crispin's day. It's bullshit.
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 10:48:24 GMT
Mythology, flags and history impart a sense of meaning and identity to many people.
Just as it would be silly to think that they are EVERYTHING, it would be unwise to suggest that they are completely valueless either.
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Post by oleandermedian on May 6, 2021 10:49:02 GMT
This article has a lot to say about that. I hope it displays OK.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on May 6, 2021 11:24:03 GMT
Toby , where does pride in where you came from stop, what does it make you , how does it define you , what do you become? Flags , dirt and mythology. When all is failing remember St Crispin's day. It's bullshit. It’s bullshit to you but not to many other people. They feel it and sometimes very deeply. Patriotism gives people a sense of belonging and community and that is natural human desire/need and can be a very positive thing that unifies disparate individuals into a cohesive whole and in doing so satisfies basic human needs. From this emerges a sense of pride in a shared culture and history. A strong sense of connection to those who share it and a desire to conserve and enjoy it. From this also emerges an atavistic aspect that is very powerful too. A respect and appreciation for our ancestors who contributed to this culture and a sense of pride and paternal protectiveness towards their achievements and legacy. It goes further though and it also extends to the landscape that surrounds us; the hills and mountains, the valleys and rivers, from the drystone dyke to the grand oak tree and everything in-between. When I’m out in the Scottish countryside I feel a connection to the land in a way that I don’t when I’ve trekking in Nepal say. This is my country and it moves me..…the shade of green, the hue of the heather, the bruised grey sky, the Scottish mist. Something swells up in me and that’s normal and it’s not something I am going to deny or dismiss in the same way that I won’t deny or dismiss the cultural stuff. Too often some people sneer at these feelings, they rationalise them away, make them weird, stupid, almost sinful when it’s perfectly normal and a culture that denies this stuff is not a particularly healthy one. When I was younger I thought patriotism was bullshit, pride in an “accident of birth” horseshit and that borders were abstract lines on a map. I get that pov but it’s also very reductionist and one that doesn’t take into account who people actually are and what they feel. Part of the problem Labour has is that those who sneer at this shit are too often the ones talking very loudly and they tend to dominate the discourse to the party’s detriment, especially these days. If Labour is serious about challenging the Tories, they need to embrace patriotism and ditch the "Britain is shit" narrative.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 11:47:54 GMT
I don't see patriotism as a necessity for any part of actually running a country. Yo go into the middle East to protect "interests" and rally round brave British bulldogs fighting to change the culture of people who are just plain ignorant in feeling any connection to their land or identity. I know what you mean Dougie and I get it. That feeling isn't part of political change or a feeling that needs to be evoked while your people are being whipped up in a fervour while that same plucky togetherness feeling becomes a have and have nots society. Because, and this the real pisser for me, I didn't see the UK as a country that was doing anything but careering out of control on a wave of cut up patriotic speeches and snake oil salesmen using a natural affinity to your fellow countrymen as a solution to a better country. You talk about people sneering the rationale and it is fed and rebranded to you as being national pride that equates to something much different. If Nippy is roamin in the gloamin evoking Scotland as hers and your country and jiving about Wallace and the Bruce and the nasty St Georgians down south it is the same chest swelling but you fucking know you are being manipulated.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 11:54:03 GMT
So you see absolutly nothing good about a bit of patriotism in any shape or form?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 12:03:32 GMT
So you see absolutly nothing good about a bit of patriotism in any shape or form? No, I want Scotland to wallop England at Wembley. Thanks for arriving right on cue though M . You expressed quite beautifully in your question how any form of state of the nation debating is now totally impossible without rubber stamping your nationalistic loyalty.
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 12:03:32 GMT
I dare anyone not to be moved by the sheer sentiment of that anthem in that context.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 12:07:04 GMT
I dare anyone not to be moved by the sheer sentiment of that anthem in that context. Oh dear god. Toby it's the same as three lions and that was written by comedians. Singing abide with me at the cup final isn't going to make me a Christian.The context is the same as your gonna get your fucking head kicked in. It just whips em up.
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Post by tory on May 6, 2021 12:15:26 GMT
Allons enfants de la Patrie Le jour de gloire est arrivé! Contre nous de la tyrannie L’étendard sanglant est levé L’étendard sanglant est levé Entendez-vous dans les campagnes Mugir ces féroces soldats? Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes!
Aux armes, citoyens Formez vos bataillons Marchons, marchons! Qu’un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 12:29:21 GMT
So you see absolutly nothing good about a bit of patriotism in any shape or form? No, I want Scotland to wallop England at Wembley. Thanks for arriving right on cue though M . You expressed quite beautifully in your question how any form of state of the nation debating is now totally impossible without rubber stamping your nationalistic loyalty. Your welcome? i think. I have no idea where you got how i expressed that, i think your forcing that view on an innocent question. Your previous posts suggests all patriotism is bad, so i'm just asking you to expand on that or confirm if that is your view.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 12:30:26 GMT
Wam! Bam! Mon chat, splatch Gît sur mon lit a bouffé sa langue en buvant dans mon whisky Quant à moi, peu dormi, vidé, brimé J'ai dû dormir dans la gouttière, où j'ai eu un flash (hou-hou-oou-oou!) En quatre couleurs Allez hop! Un matin une louloute est v'nue chez-moi Poupée de Cellophane, cheveux chinois Un sparadrap, une gueule de bois A bu ma bière dans un grand verre en caoutchouc (hou-hou-oou-oou!) Comme un indien dans son igloo Ça plane pour moi Ça plane pour moi Ça plane pour moi, moi, moi, moi, moi, ça plane pour moi (Hou-hou-oou-oou!) ça plane pour moi
Same result.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 12:33:48 GMT
No, I want Scotland to wallop England at Wembley. Thanks for arriving right on cue though M . You expressed quite beautifully in your question how any form of state of the nation debating is now totally impossible without rubber stamping your nationalistic loyalty. Your welcome? i think. I have no idea where you got how i expressed that, i think your forcing that view on an innocent question. Your previous posts suggests all patriotism is bad, so i'm just asking you to expand on that or confirm if that is your view. Well I did express my views on patriotic fervour. What happened? Yeah, but you love your country right? You ain't a fucking snowflake are ya? Why don't you feel like me ? Where's your fucking POPPY !!! on and on
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