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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 8:49:30 GMT
Wagner. Phone autocorrect. I think you can say something is objectively better than something else, but appreciate that the context of different centuries introduces different variables that complicate matters further. I'd argue that if you went to a Cathedral in the 18th century and heard, say, Bach, your mind would be blown - it would be a cosmic experience unlike anything you'd ever heard. Firstly, to hear orchestral music and also to be in a Cathedral itself would be a phenomenal experience. We are desensitised to the power of art in many respects because we have access to it so easily. In the internet era you can summon up anything and view it, watch it, know everything about it in a short period of time. We can dismiss it or pay little or no heed to it because it exists in a particular dimension of access that is unlike anything we've had before. The power of transcendence with that surely declines - although I'd say that music, literature and poetry can still deliver that because of the medium. Leisure and time now provide more powerful things than "transcendence" because well, they are enjoyable. I think those are good points. But I think you are talking about context here, rather than the art itself. I mean if you were driving an open top sports car through the Mojave desert and the sun was coming up, then some 70s rock track might well sound "transcendent".
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2020 9:02:14 GMT
Absolutely!
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Post by tory on Nov 23, 2020 9:11:14 GMT
I don't think you can strip any piece of art of context can you?
I mean, when it was made, the artist, who it was made for, why it took on the form it has, why it exists - all these are fundamentals that you can't strip away from the artwork.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2020 9:16:28 GMT
That's more a sensory thing though. Take out the car and the drugs and the desert sky and you have The Doobie Brothers on a 8-track.
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Post by tory on Nov 23, 2020 9:18:18 GMT
There is a whole other realm of feeling that some art, like Wagner, provides. It is different but it's very definitely a thing. I know because I've felt it, I've experienced it. Yes. I guess this comes down to how you can articulate it. We all "feel" something when we hear great music - but if you're a Carlsson, you might just say "robust" or just go "YEAH!" but others might be able to articulate a sentiment in a more meaningful manner. I mean, when I watch Kraftwerk, there's a whole ton of stuff zinging inside my head. There's the "gesamtkunstwerk", the whole dialogue between man and machine that appears throughout, the minimalism, the sheer simplicity of the lyrics and how difficult it is to do very little in music rather than a lot, the thought behind the visuals and how they portray a sort of "future nostalgia", the fact that they manage to appear futuristic and also quaint and affected...It speaks to me of great art because they are making music and yet I am not concentrating on what they are doing (ie technique). But then others may think "yeh wevs".
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2020 9:19:08 GMT
I don't think you can strip any piece of art of context can you? I mean, when it was made, the artist, who it was made for, why it took on the form it has, why it exists - all these are fundamentals that you can't strip away from the artwork. I'm not sure. Some art exists completely in isolation. Literature. All you need - all you've ever needed - are the words. You can sit in a chair anywhere and read the novel and it hits you regardless of where you are. Maybe I'm taking your 'context' idea too literally but I'm not sure how else to take it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 9:20:15 GMT
That's more a sensory thing though. Take out the car and the drugs and the desert sky and you have The Doobie Brothers on a 8-track. Well that was the point I was making. I was responding to Toby's point about hearing Bach in a cathedral in the 18th century.
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Post by tory on Nov 23, 2020 9:23:01 GMT
Literature cannot exist in isolation. Sure, you could argue that all you have are the words. But then you would know the author, the time the literature was written, the language it was written in to start with. All those are powerful contexts . It provides the power to transcend, yes, but it doesn't exist in isolation. Imagine reading a novel in Russian handed to you by someone who didn't tell you who the author was - if you didn't know Russian, its power to transcend would be completely dead.
I did say that literature, music and poetry have the power to provide transcendence in a more immediate way because with visual art and architecture you have to really be present to appreciate it, in that you'd have to go to a Cathedral or say, go and look at a painting or sculpture to view it.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2020 9:24:54 GMT
That's more a sensory thing though. Take out the car and the drugs and the desert sky and you have The Doobie Brothers on a 8-track. Well that was the point I was making. I was responding to Toby's point about hearing Bach in a cathedral in the 18th century. Yeah but you can experience transcendence with Bach sitting on the couch too. There is something in the art that is transcendent.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 9:28:20 GMT
I don't know..I've never sat next to Bach on a couch.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2020 9:28:32 GMT
There is a whole other realm of feeling that some art, like Wagner, provides. It is different but it's very definitely a thing. I know because I've felt it, I've experienced it. Yes. I guess this comes down to how you can articulate it. We all "feel" something when we hear great music - but if you're a Carlsson, you might just say "robust" or just go "YEAH!" but others might be able to articulate a sentiment in a more meaningful manner. I mean, when I watch Kraftwerk, there's a whole ton of stuff zinging inside my head. There's the "gesamtkunstwerk", the whole dialogue between man and machine that appears throughout, the minimalism, the sheer simplicity of the lyrics and how difficult it is to do very little in music rather than a lot, the thought behind the visuals and how they portray a sort of "future nostalgia", the fact that they manage to appear futuristic and also quaint and affected...It speaks to me of great art because they are making music and yet I am not concentrating on what they are doing (ie technique). But then others may think "yeh wevs". When I'm sitting on the couch sobbing my eyes out I know there is a difference between Wagner and X or Y.
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2020 9:29:23 GMT
Literature cannot exist in isolation. Sure, you could argue that all you have are the words. But then you would know the author, the time the literature was written, the language it was written in to start with. All those are powerful contexts . It provides the power to transcend, yes, but it doesn't exist in isolation. Imagine reading a novel in Russian handed to you by someone who didn't tell you who the author was - if you didn't know Russian, its power to transcend would be completely dead. I think you're exaggerating the potency of context. What about simple stories that people can relate to? There are many examples like that. And the author, the time, the original language - none of those things are important. It might help to know, you might be interested to find these things out later, but they're not necessarily going to help you enjoy the work.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2020 9:31:53 GMT
I don't know..I've never sat next to Bach on a couch. Quiet fella, likes to watch gogglebox and eat biscuits.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 9:41:02 GMT
Well that was the point I was making. I was responding to Toby's point about hearing Bach in a cathedral in the 18th century. Yeah but you can experience transcendence with Bach sitting on the couch too. There is something in the art that is transcendent. I know what you mean, but I also think there's also a lot of cultural projection with these things. We immediately use someone like Bach as this cultural shorthand for quality, huge artistic ambition, the highest achievement etc. But I've felt similar exaltation or transcendence listening to a Cocteau Twins track, but they will not have the same power as an example because they don't have centuries of cultural veneration attached to them and likely never will.
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2020 9:56:51 GMT
Warner
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